Jesus. People would be happy to pay for online with Melee because... get this, they haven't already been playing it online for free all last gen. You see the difference? Something they used to have for free versus something brand new? Same difference with Smash 4 and Smash 5. Not a complicated point.
Separate your whine about online from the actual discussion at hand and you'll understand what I'm saying. This isn't about having to pay for online now vs not having to pay for it before. It's about whether or not a Deluxe port of Smash Bros 4 would be enough to not warrant a Smash 5. All I'm saying is that a Smash Bros of any kind would be a big enough deal to be part of a promotion for a new online service.
Now if you can explain what a Smash 4 Deluxe can't do that a Smash 5 could I'm all ears. But so far nobody has explained what it could actually have that is so necessary. Would it look better? No. Would it have new mechanics? Probably not. It'd have new stages and characters for sure but there's no reason why a Smash 4 Deluxe couldn't do the same. So explain to me, without mentioning online, why is Smash 5 necessary?
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"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"
@backup368
If you're talking about balancing they would surely be doing that anyway. If they were to release a deluxe port with a couple of new characters it would require some re-balancing. And in any it would be effectively a new release and so would get patches not unlike how any other game does, the same as Mario Kart 8 Deluxe did. I think you're making a whole bunch of assumptions here.
I am not. Mario for example could use some new special moves. Zelda characters, obviously, need new attire. Wario is just a mess in my honest opinion, and needs to be a completely different character entirely. There are over a dozen characters that need new Final Smashes.
So explain to me, without mentioning online, why is Smash 5 necessary?
Firstly, if you get a port, that would mean you would have to invest a lot of time getting all the secret characters and stages & unlock all the trophies again, and you have to play the same single player modes with all the characters all over again. Is that worth it? No, especially if they are trophies representing content from older games. For a new game, it's no secret that you would have a lot of unlockables, but that isn't to say that you wouldn't unlock new content and unlock it in different ways.
Secondly, the Inkling. It's a 99.9% certainty that he is going to be a new character in the next Super Smash Bros. But with the current Wii-U engine, how authentic could they possible make him, when his claim to fame is shooting out ink that spreads along the ground? I doubt that the 2014 engine is capable of it, even if they end up using it for a Switch version.
Thirdly, they need a robust single player mode. Aside from classic mode (which was anything but in the Wii-U version), they need that story or adventure mode that was severely lacking. Netherrealm is setting a positive trend of fighting games with storytelling. If you ask me, they should go the SOTN route and have a large map, with areas that are only accessible to certain characters. Can a port just have that included. Yes, but that takes a lot of work to do regardless.
Fourthly, there are several third party developers who would be itching to have their characters included in the game. While more characters would be a certainty, "a few" characters wouldn't be enough to include all that would be viable enough. Would Nintendo tell them "Sorry! That's all folks. Try again when after we unveil our next console."?
I mostly want a port because I want Sonic, Megaman and Pac-Man back, but even then there's no guarantee they would return. I've lived long enough to know nothing is a guarantee in video game sequels. That and I think Sakurai is pooped at the moment, and they really need a Smash right now to keep the momentum up and something to entice people to get their online service.
Hardly anyone in the game industry takes a break. If he's not going to work, somebody else will take his place.
I am not. Mario for example could use some new special moves. Zelda characters, obviously, need new attire. Wario is just a mess in my honest opinion, and needs to be a completely different character entirely. There are over a dozen characters that need new Final Smashes.
New Costumes don't need a new release so I don't think they need a new version to give Link a BotW outfit. With that said, if reworking all of the characters movesets is what you want then that would indeed be more of a new release. So thanks for being the first person I've heard to actually bring up a decent against a Deluxe release that makes any kind of sense.
With that said, I still think you're in the minority here. I can't speak for others but I personally don't see what the issue is with the characters you mentioned. And even if I did don't think an entirely new release would necessarily give you what you wanted. For example the only aesthetic change to Mario's moves since Melee is the addition of F.L.U.D.D in Brawl. Just because something can be changed doesn't mean it would be.
Personally I'd rather a Smash Bros Deluxe that is the same game as on Wii U but with all the DLC and a few extra characters/stages. Because the only reason for an a Smash 5 would be to rework some characters I personally may not have wanted reworked. And you just know that a Smash 5 is going to mean that some of the existing characters are dropped.
Firstly, if you get a port, that would mean you would have to invest a lot of time getting all the secret characters and stages & unlock all the trophies again, and you have to play the same single player modes with all the characters all over again.
And it'd be the same same with a new release, what's your point? If anything a port would make it less likely you'd have to go through that given Mario Kart 8 Deluxe had characters unlocked from the start.
With the current Wii-U engine, how authentic could they possible make him, when his claim to fame is shooting out ink that spreads along the ground? I doubt that the 2014 engine is capable of it, even if they end up using it for a Switch version.
Based on what evidence? How would it graphically be that different from F.L.U.D.D for example?
Even if you believe they do and maybe you're right that doesn't need to be a brand new release. Remember the 3DS and Wii U release had different modes with the 3DS being more single player focused and the Wii U release having more multiplayer options. I think it's fair to assume that a theoretical "Smash Bros for Switch" would follow the same trend.
Fourthly, there are several third party developers who would be itching to have their characters included in the game. While more characters would be a certainty, "a few" characters wouldn't be enough to include all that would be viable enough.
Equally a brand new release would likely mean the loss of one or more of Bayonetta, MegaMan, Pacman, Ryu, Cloud & Sonic. I don't see how a brand new release could possibly have a roster that's better than a Deluxe release likely would. Take the Wii U roster as it is and add characters like Inkling, Doom Man and Rayman to the list. How would you improve that roster further?
So explain to me, without mentioning online, why is Smash 5 necessary?
Firstly, if you get a port, that would mean you would have to invest a lot of time getting all the secret characters and stages & unlock all the trophies again, and you have to play the same single player modes with all the characters all over again. Is that worth it? No, especially if they are trophies representing content from older games. For a new game, it's no secret that you would have a lot of unlockables, but that isn't to say that you wouldn't unlock new content and unlock it in different ways.
Not necessarily, compare Mario Kart 8 with Mario Kart 8 Deluxe for example. In Mario Kart 8, 4 cups (Star, Special, Leaf, Lightning) and 14 characters (the Koopalings, Rosalina, Metal Mario, Pink Gold Peach, Baby Rosalina, Toadette, Lakitu, Mii) are locked at the beginning. In Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, all cups are unlocked from the start and the only unlockable character is a new character (Gold Mario). Sure you have to unlock kart parts like in the original game but you get them naturally from getting coins in any mode which isn't exactly an issue.
The other points are either not that important (3rd point), gains would be balanced by losses (4th point, Smash 5 would almost guarantee the loss of some 3rd party characters) or just straight up assumptions (2nd point), don't forget that the 3DS is what held back Smash 4 of which that isn't an issue this time around.
@skywake
First of all, don't project whining onto me, thanks. I don't play Smash and I don't play anything online. I don't even have PS Plus for my PS4. So I have no skin in the game, and it makes no difference to me one way or another what Nintendo do with their online service or with Smash.
Second, you are not the arbiter of this discussion and you do not set its parameters. Why you insist on removing Nintendo's online service from the discussion of one of their biggest games with online functionality is utterly beyond me. It's entirely relevant.
Third, I agree, there is no point in making Smash 5. There was also no point in making Smash 4. There was no point in making ten million versions of Street Fighter 2. Fighting games are iterative garbage to sit alongside the annual Madden and Fifa releases. I'm amazed there isn't a new Smash every year.
This is all academic because I'm really talking about what makes sense for Nintendo to do, so yeah they will probably do the opposite and try to launch their inevitably overpriced online subscription service with a knackered out old Wii U port that's already been played to death online.
Second, you are not the arbiter of this discussion and you do not set its parameters. Why you insist on removing Nintendo's online service from the discussion of one of their biggest games with online functionality is utterly beyond me. It's entirely relevant.
In a discussion people can disagree. I disagree with your assertion that the online service being a paid service is at all relevant in a discussion about whether Nintendo should release Smash Bros 4 Deluxe for Switch or Smash Bros 5. They're two entirely separate things. So again, separate the whine from the actual discussion at hand. Ignoring online entirely, how would we better off with a Smash 5 rather than a Smash 4 Deluxe? Because apparently you don't think there is a reason given you believe this:
Third, I agree, there is no point in making Smash 5. There was also no point in making Smash 4. There was no point in making ten million versions of Street Fighter 2. Fighting games are iterative garbage to sit alongside the annual Madden and Fifa releases.
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"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"
You've stated that we disagree, and yet you're asking me to answer a question that requires me to completely disregard my disagreement with you. I don't NEED another reason other than online. I'm also not saying whether we'd be better off with either Smash 4 or 5, I'm just agreeing with backup's theories as to which is more likely to happen (with online being one of those reasons).
You seem to think that the uptake of Nintendo's paid online service would not be any larger with brand new Smash as with a port of Smash 4, which seems a bit dismissive.
Good job on continuing with your 'whine' narrative though. Trying to undermine people's logical arguments as emotional whining is really the sign of a top notch debate.
@Grumblevolcano It depends on what the developer decides to do. Before Hyrule Warriors got a Wii-U port, it got a 3DS port. Has the 3DS port practically beat itself, or are the unlockables obtained in the same way? I only played the original version.
Plus, if the trophies were all there right from the start, what would their purpose be? And what would the purpose be of mission modes & other objective-centric modes?
New Costumes don't need a new release so I don't think they need a new version to give Link a BotW outfit. With that said, if reworking all of the characters movesets is what you want then that would indeed be more of a new release. So thanks for being the first person I've heard to actually bring up a decent against a Deluxe release that makes any kind of sense.
With that said, I still think you're in the minority here. I can't speak for others but I personally don't see what the issue is with the characters you mentioned. And even if I did don't think an entirely new release would necessarily give you what you wanted. For example the only aesthetic change to Mario's moves since Melee is the addition of F.L.U.D.D in Brawl. Just because something can be changed doesn't mean it would be.
He's only had that for one game. Mario has had some form of a spin attack for many different games. That would be like Link playing the ocarina as a special move for one game & never getting it replaced. Eventually, you're going to want something fresh.
Personally I'd rather a Smash Bros Deluxe that is the same game as on Wii U but with all the DLC and a few extra characters/stages. Because the only reason for an a Smash 5 would be to rework some characters I personally may not have wanted reworked. And you just know that a Smash 5 is going to mean that some of the existing characters are dropped.
There are characters that have no right to be in this roster. It should be treated as a Nintendo's very own "hall of fame". People including myself no not want to have to deal with mistakes and questionable decisions made by Sakurai. Dark Pit, for instance has been in Brawl before he's actually been in his own first game, while King K. Rool still isn't in Smash Bros. after how long people have been asking.
And it'd be the same same with a new release, what's your point? If anything a port would make it less likely you'd have to go through that given Mario Kart 8 Deluxe had characters unlocked from the start.
But if you have a new game, obviously it's something you've never played and beaten before. Unlike Mario Kart 8, there are trophies, music tracks, and game modes specifically designed for obtaining these unlockables. What would be the point of all of that if everything is just unlocked right off the bat?
Based on what evidence? How would it graphically be that different from F.L.U.D.D for example?
Have you seen Splatoon before? If so, then you know Inklings shoot colored ink all over a given venue, not water. If you didn't have ink puddles and splatters present, then the character will just feel like a generic character with ordinary guns, bombs, and more. It would be like Olimar not being able to pull out Pikmin and use them for attacks.
Equally a brand new release would likely mean the loss of one or more of Bayonetta, MegaMan, Pacman, Ryu, Cloud & Sonic. I don't see how a brand new release could possibly have a roster that's better than a Deluxe release likely would. Take the Wii U roster as it is and add characters like Inkling, Doom Man and Rayman to the list. How would you improve that roster further?
There are many characters they could add: Rex & Pyra, Inkling, Spring Man, Paper Mario, a new Pokemon, Fighter Hayabusa, King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Takamaru, Impa, Medusa, Rayman, Bomberman, and Scorpion. And let's not forget all the stages that gamers would like to see as well. The new Hyrule, New Donk City, K. Rool's Pirate Ship, some place in Alola, a Splatoon stage, a Titan from Xenoblade 2, and more. There's plenty of content that can be added to the game, so why not just make a new gme rather than wasting all this time to only pick a new stage or two?
@backup368
You're making a whole lot of assumptions here. This isn't about whether we'd get a straight port of Smash 4 vs Nintendo hiring you as director and going down your wish-list. If you want to argue the point at least pretend to be even handed about it. Don't talk down what we'd likely get in a Deluxe release and write a fantasy list for Smash 5.
@noobish_hat
Ok, lets go down your line of thinking then. Why does Nintendo need Smash Bros to sell the online service? Why do these two things have to be so linked together that an enhanced port simply won't cut it? You've already said that you won't personally be buying online. You've also said that you think a Smash 5 would be super derivative to the point where it would basically be the same as a port anyway. So what's your actual argument here?
I'm not exactly sure what they'd change between Smash 4 to a Smash 5 on a fundamental gameplay level. Going from Brawl to 4 was pretty much just no tripping, multiple ledge grabs by multiple people, a quicker overall speed, and minor moveset differences. Sure there's other minor things like a lag animation if you air dodge then land mid-animation and a cooldown on grabs to prevent chain grabs, but aside from that... nothing really. A 5 can further tighten things, I guess.
So they don't even need to market it as a Smash 4 port. It can be a Smash 5 with additional stuff and more single-player content with even more fighters like Ice Climbers and the previous DLC.
Add more single-player stuff, more stages, more fighters, and that's pretty much enough as a Smash 5. And that already sounds a bit like a Smash 4 DX, hmm?
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I've been pretty clear on what my argument is. All things considered, Smash 5 seems more likely than a port of Smash 4. Backup explained it quite nicely, I'm just supporting his ideas. 1. Nintendo has not ported all that many of their own games; 2. The ones they did, they did early on; 3. There has been enough time for a new Smash to not be completely unexpected anyway; and 4. A new Smash would be a bigger driver of subscription sales than old Smash would (and Nintendo really need all the help they can get pushing it).
I like that you think Smash 5 would be more redundant than literally the exact same game again.
Unlike all the other games that have been ported over, Smash 4 has a portable release that has content exclusive to that version. People would expect this "Deluxe" port, to include everything the 3DS version had as well. I think, if it does exist, it would obviously take more time to re-do all the stages in HD (it's going to require more than just "upping the resolution". Actually Hyrule Warriors I think, is in a similar situation and that's barely coming out this Spring.
Also I think you're underestimating how long it takes to make a new Smash Bros. game, at least in this day and age. The average has been about 6-7 years in-between releases (minus the original to melee).
Nintendo's online subscription comes out this year (it's already been delayed enough), and Smash would be THE GAME, to release alongside their paid online. Sure a new Smash would drive in bigger sales but... honestly they don't really have the time for that if they want to release it in the same window as their service. You would think they would want to put more time and effort (as they have been doing lately with games such as Odyssey and Breath of the Wild) to make the new Smash a bigger and better game. If they are just going to half-ass it... why not just release a port at that point, besides it making financial sense, which it does... because they know people will buy it anyways.
I like that you think Smash 5 would be more redundant than literally the exact same game again.
I never said Smash 5 would be lesser I've just said it's not necessary when a deluxe edition would serve the same need. Also nobody is talking about "literally the same game" here. Guys, if you want to have an argument the least you could do is be fair minded about it. Don't create strawmen
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"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"
@KaiserGX The development time actually isn’t that much, at least compared to other E-ticket Nintendo games. Brawl was released in 2008, no more than three years after it began development. Super Smash Bros. U and Super Smash Bros. 3DS (two different instalments, according to the lead developer) began development in March 2012 and were released in late 2014. So development time is about 2-3 years. By comparison, Super Mario Odyssey secretly began development in late 2013 (right after 3D World came out) for release in late 2017 (the same year it was revealed to the public). I think everyone here is glad that they did that instead of just porting over 3D World (plus a few new courses and/or the option to use Wario or Yoshi).
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Topic: 2 Major Things That Go Against Having A Smash Bros. "Deluxe Port"
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