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Topic: Zelda's Wii U-Turn to NX

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Therad

@SCAR: You are really twisting and distorting facts aren't you?
How can "Espresso shares some technology with POWER7, such as eDRAM and Power Architecture, but those are superficial similarities" become " it could be slightly enhanced Power7"?

The CPU is not a power7 CPU. Just because I add a spoiler and ferrari hub-caps to a Fiat 500, it still doesn't become a ferrari. But this is still a moot point, I will say that even the last gen consoles have enough CPU power for most games. It is the GPU that is the most important, and they are very behind the curve on that one. AND they have to drive a second screen on top of that. It is physically impossible for Wii U to push the share amount of polygons that the "PowerTwins" can do.

GPGPU is a term for using a GPU for General Processing. This means that you use the computing power of a GPU to do calculations. This is all fine and good, but in principal ANY computer and console can do it. But it has some drawbacks, you can't use it for everything, and it steals resources from the GPUs main task in a console, mainly calculating graphics. That is, if you start using it for calculations, you will actually lower the output of the graphics. It doesn't magically add extra power.
I think you are thinking about APU, a concept from AMD. And before you start spreading that as facts, no Wii U doesn't have an APU.

What you perceive as nicer graphics are just that, your perception. And quite frankly, art style is more important for that.

And still, why are you talking about the PS3? The PS4 is the benchmark at the moment. That some franchises still come to the older are only for franchises where they can be sure they will get ROI. And ROI is why no one ports to Wii U, it is hard to break even when the install base is so small. This is the reason no one ports games. And to increase the install base they have to change the perception of consumers. Either for the current or by releasing a new one...

Therad

SCRAPPER392

@Therad
Like I said, I could go and google, but who cares? All I know is that it can run Kingdom Hearts III, CoD Black Ops III, and could have ran CoD Ghosts at 1080p like PS4, but the developers haven't gotten any further in software development, period. I'm only considering 3rd party efforts like CoD BO3 to look like PS3 graphics, namely Killzone 3 as an example, because they didn't care to learn CELL graphics on PS3(only Sony pushed the graphics). All the consoles have already surpassed that, just by looking at the specs, including Wii U, so now the new hardware has to be learned.

Even Final Fantasy XV was supposed to be PS3, dude, and the graphics are only getting bumped by a small margin, based off of demo footage from years ago. The graphics race doesn't even make sense if developers are unable to get there, and that's been what's happening since we got 7th generation ports on Wii U, and further back on PS3. Why do you think Darksiders 2, the Metro Reduex, among other games got ported and enhanced? It really doesn't become any more clear than that.

Edited on by SCRAPPER392

Qwest

3DS Friend Code: 4253-3737-8064 | Nintendo Network ID: Children

skywake

@SCAR:
1. Nintendo never said "we are not replacing 3DS or Wii U", they said that it would be more than just a replacement. Implying that it would actually replace one but it would be more than just a spec up. Effectively squashing the notion that it would be a third pillar or a crossover device. Here's the full quote for that:

Iwata wrote:

We will not announce any details about NX until 2016. I used the name "NX" during our joint press conference with DeNA on March 17 because we thought that our announcing the business alliance with DeNA to start a smart device business could result in such misunderstanding as "Nintendo is making a transfer to smart devices because it is pessimistic about the future for dedicated video game systems." I intentionally chose to announce the development of NX so early because I wanted to confirm the fact that we are developing a new dedicated video game platform, that we have never lost passion regarding the future for dedicated video game systems and that we have bright prospects for them. Though I cannot confirm when it will be launched or any other details of the system, since I have confirmed that it will be "a dedicated video game platform with a brand new concept," it should mean that we do not intend it to become a simple "replacement" for Nintendo 3DS or Wii U.

2. When you talk about it being something other than a game playing device you're well off the mark. They made it perfectly clear when they announced it that it would be a dedicated piece of gaming hardware. When asked whether the NX would bridge the gap between portable and non-portable Iwata didn't give anything away. Instead he talked about how dedicated gaming hardware is treated differently in Japan than it is in the rest of the world. Which suggests to me that this isn't some weird niche product and is instead a gaming device of mass appeal. And here's the quote for that:

Iwata wrote:

Your question also included the "current notion of thinking about home consoles and handheld devices." When it comes to how dedicated game systems are being played, the situations have become rather different, especially between Japan and overseas. Since we are always thinking about how to create a new platform that will be accepted by as many people around the world as possible, we would like to offer to them "a dedicated video game platform with a brand new concept" by taking into consideration various factors, including the playing environments that differ by country. This is all that I can confirm today.

3. When you talk about QoL and DeNA and bundle it into what the NX is again you are missing the mark. Iwata also addressed them all as their own separate things. If we are going to scour through what has been said and twist words we should first consider what is laying directly in-front of us. Iwata made a point of saying DeNA and QoL were not suitable for E3 because E3 is a show for dedicated video game hardware. He then went on to say that even though NX was dedicated video game hardware they had nothing to announce in 2015 so it wouldn't be at E3 2015 (implying it would be at E3 2016). And here's the full quote for that.

Iwata wrote:

Taking this opportunity, because we were often asked if we will make any new announcements about NX, smart device applications or QOL at this year's E3 show, let me confirm that we will not discuss anything about our smart device business or QOL there because, to us, E3 is an event mainly for dedicated video game systems. Also, because we have confirmed that any new information about NX will be announced in 2016, I hope you will understand that if you expect us to discuss NX during the upcoming E3 show, you will just end up being disappointed.

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

skywake

Basically we can be fairly confident that the NX is:
1. A device that games are specifically developed for
2. Is not a bridge device between mobile and portable gaming
3. Is not their QoL device or something built to only play their mobile software
4. Is being built taking into account the fact that Japan is not like the rest of the world
5. Is a successor to the Wii U or the 3DS but is not just a Wii U Mini or Newer New 3DS

Bringing it back to the thread topic again, could Zelda U appear on this if it's a home console? Definitely, I see no reason why it technically couldn't happen. So lets not pretend that it isn't a possibility. But again, the issue I have with the theory are the number of other ways it could play out. I also don't see it as being a particularly smart move unless they can do it gracefully. Without delays and without Wii U users feeling cheated. Assassin's Creed 4 did it well by giving you a free copy of the PS4 version if you got a PS3 copy at launch, I would hope that Nintendo would do something similar.

Though if it's a portable or a dramatically different architecture? If it's not a 2016 release? I can imagine it not playing out.

Edited on by skywake

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

SCRAPPER392

@skywake
Ya, that makes no sense. I can say confidently that it could and probably is all of those things. That's why these discussions are pointless.
Do I think NX could lay the foundation for hardware in the future? Yes, but that the foundation is not the entirety of other consoles, obviously.
PS4, 3DS, and NX are all supposed to have Dragon Quest 11, but the graphics will probably be like Monster Hunter so it can run on all of them, because otherwise let's say the PS4 is "weak" and can only run a 3DS game, which would be as stupid as saying Wii U is unable to run CoD 13 and so on.

Qwest

3DS Friend Code: 4253-3737-8064 | Nintendo Network ID: Children

skywake

SCAR wrote:

@skywake
Ya, that makes no sense. I can say confidently that it could and probably is all of those things. That's why these discussions are pointless.

So basically I spell out entirely the rationale behind my point of view. Quote what Iwata said directly after the announcement of the NX as evidence to support my point of view. Quotes that are not edited and contain all of the context. Quotes that literally talk about the NX as not being related to QoL or mobile, quotes that talk about the NX as being a piece of dedicated gaming hardware. Repeatedly.

.... and your response is just to brush it off entirely. You talk about the topic itself as being why discussions like this are pointless. I don't think that's true. I think discussions with a person who doesn't want to look at the evidence are pointless. It's not this topic that's the issue here, it's the people discussing it.

Edited on by skywake

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Therad

@scar: Ok lets assume that Wii U is as powerful as the PS4. You hardly need any porting of all and 3rd parties are lazy.
How does this make NX a micro-console instead of a replacement for 3DS or U? That is quite an leap in logic, as @skywake has tried and explained for you.

What benefits would this alleged MC have over other MCs out there, like apple TV, Kindle Fire TV, google player etc? How would this micro-console be able to have the "potential to return to the same kind of profitability nintendo had in the Wii and DS era within three years"[1]? You haven't really given any other defense than "I believe Wii U and 3DS are fine!". No business case, nothing about what would be the draw of the console. Why would current nintendo fans buy it? Why would owners of PS4 or Xbox buy it? Why would "casuals" buy it? Who wants to buy a micro console from Nintendo?

[1]http://gamingbolt.com/nintendo-on-nx-we-think-we-can-be-as-profitable-as-we-were-in-the-wiids-era-in-three-years

Therad

Octane

@skywake: Thanks for that post, it's something everyone should read before they start making their own assumptions on what the NX is. I find this part quite interesting as well ''I intentionally chose to announce the development of NX so early'', early is relative, but considering the development cycles of other consoles, I really don't think we're looking at a 2016 release window. Zelda U could release on the NX as well if it turns out to be a home console, but if we're looking at a 2017 release for the NX, it's not very likely.

@SCAR: You do realise that DQXI for the 3DS and PS4 are two different versions? They're two completely different games. Square Enix never confirmed an NX release either, all they said was: “It is under consideration, but we don’t have further information to share at the moment.”

Octane

rallydefault

skywake wrote:

SCAR wrote:

@skywake
Ya, that makes no sense. I can say confidently that it could and probably is all of those things. That's why these discussions are pointless.

So basically I spell out entirely the rationale behind my point of view. Quote what Iwata said directly after the announcement of the NX as evidence to support my point of view. Quotes that are not edited and contain all of the context. Quotes that literally talk about the NX as not being related to QoL or mobile, quotes that talk about the NX as being a piece of dedicated gaming hardware. Repeatedly.

.... and your response is just to brush it off entirely. You talk about the topic itself as being why discussions like this are pointless. I don't think that's true. I think discussions with a person who doesn't want to look at the evidence are pointless. It's not this topic that's the issue here, it's the people discussing it.

Now THERE'S something I can agree with. And this applies to more than just SCAR lol

rallydefault

LzWinky

@skywake: I think it's best to move on before things get too ugly

Current games: Everything on Switch

Switch Friend Code: SW-5075-7879-0008 | My Nintendo: LzWinky | Nintendo Network ID: LzWinky

Frostyboy

I honesty think Nintendo are trying something left field like they did with the DS and with the 3ds being so dated I'm hoping the NX will be Handheld. Maybe like the Gameboy they plan on retiring the DS brand not "replace" it by trying a new concept and if it fail they still have DS band to fall back on. But one thing we do know is that the New Legend of Zelda will be on the Wii U

Swopped my Saga master system for my friend NES and iv never look back.

Miitomo - http://twitter.com/@Frostyboy

Twitter:

SCRAPPER392

@skywake
I could easily say the same thing, dude. I gave just as many reasons to support my points, and you brushed them off just as much as I did. Way to be a hypocrite, man. Totally uncalled for.

Qwest

3DS Friend Code: 4253-3737-8064 | Nintendo Network ID: Children

skywake

SCAR wrote:

I gave just as many reasons to support my points, and you brushed them off just as much as I did.

The only reason I'm brushing off your theories is because they are baseless. When the NX has repeatedly been referred to as a piece of dedicated gaming hardware? I think it's a bit of a stretch to conclude that it's not replacing the 3DS or the Wii U. That's quite a big claim to make. If you want to make such a claim that goes against everything that has been said about it? Back it up with evidence. Something which you haven't done.

The wise man knows how little he knows, the fool thinks he knows everything. It's worth remembering how ignorant we all are of this topic. So don't go leaping to conclusions unless you want to look like an idiot.

Edited on by skywake

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

SCRAPPER392

I never said it was it wasn't dedicated gaming hardware. I said it was a micro console(or at least secondary home console), instead of a MAIN home console(Wii U) or portable(New 3DS).

Qwest

3DS Friend Code: 4253-3737-8064 | Nintendo Network ID: Children

skywake

@SCAR:
You've said so many things at this point that what you did and didn't say is meaningless

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

LetsGoRetro

I am not able to check this website often enough to reply as much as I would like. By the time I get chance to check it, I simply don't have the time to respond to 10 or so posts, although I am happy the topic was popular enough to stir up this much of a debate, even if the vast majority don't agree with me. I want to cherry pick, and pick apart sentence by sentence, this response to me, because it is really tailor made for everything I ever wanted to say in this thread:

@Octane

"The NX has to be a home console that also launches in 2016 alongside Zelda U."
..Very possible as it's being shown next year and Nintendo will be at the end of the 4th year of by far their lowest selling home console. A cycle that typically extends 5 years for their higher selling consoles.

" It also has to be of a close enough architecture to the Wii U that porting is a relatively easy task and they can get it out quick."
..If it comes to both, yes. While most are taking the "definitely Wii U, maybe NX" stance, I take the opposite.

" A year between Zelda U on Wii U and NX effectively kills any momentum Zelda U on the NX would have brought."
..If I could single in on one point that this whole thread is based around, it's this. You just don't get it. Momentum is the entire reason I feel it's coming to NX. It ISN'T bringing ANY momentum UNLESS it comes to NX. How can people still not understand this? We thought this with SO many games before. Mario 3d World, Smash Bros U, Mario Kart 8. They were all going to be what turned the U's fortunes around. NOW conumers were going to see the value in it! The console was a failure and NO software was going to save it. How can you not see the business sense in taking the ONLY highly anticipated title you have left and shifting it to a more hopeful medium? Oh, you honestly think that Zelda is going to turn around the Wii U's fortunes at the end of the Wii U's FOURTH year? Come on, man. What momentum will it lose? The 100 people that frequent this board that will say "Well gee whiz I was really wanting it for the Wii U, I just don't want it now that it's for the NX". Again, many of the Wii U owners are the Nintendo faithful and they will buy the NX anyways. Nintendo knows this. They want the many, many millions more out there. That's more important than feeling that they "owe" you Zelda U for buying a Wii U.. Which brings me to the next point...

"And even if they do all of that they also have to do something to soften the blow for the people who got a Wii U for Zelda U."
..And this is the reason everyone here keeps disagreeing with me. They can say it's my "logic" all they want, but all they're saying to me is "NO I bought a Wii U so Nintendo owes me this new Zelda title on it!!" No, they don't. They can release whatever they want on whatever console they want. And they're going to.

"Especially given that they're still only talking about Zelda on Wii U AND drumming up the Zelda by also releasing Twilight Princess HD on Wii U."
..Really, now. You see TPHD as "drumming up the Zelda". Would there REALLY be a need for TPHD if ZeldaU was still coming, my friend? Think about it. We couldn't wait the extra year, huh? So their thinking was "If we give them an old Zelda, it'll DRUM UP THE ZELDA and get the wanting even more Zelda on this console" And they're still only talking about Zelda on Wii U? Do you think... Well, maybe it's because they're .. Not talking about NX until 2016? How the heck could they talk about it? Do you know the ONLY major change we've seen recently? They're suddenly referring to it as "The new Zelda" instead of ZeldaU. Hmm.. (and yes, I am calling it zeldau a that's been it's working title for many years)

"If the NX is a 2017 release and Zelda U lands in 2016? The theory falls apart. If the NX is drastically different to the Wii U in terms of development? The game would be delayed even more for the NX and the theory falls apart. If the NX isn't a traditional home console and is a hybrid, micro or portable system? The theory falls apart. With Twilight Princess everything lined up for it to happen, I think it's unlikely that that will happen again."
..If, if, if. I have many if's too, and you don't seem to like those.

Edited on by LetsGoRetro

LetsGoRetro

jump

^When you're quoting someone by typing in " rather than actual actually quoting them and then writing your response right next to it has made all that realy difficult to read and understand.

Nicolai wrote:

Alright, I gotta stop getting into arguments with jump. Someone remind me next time.

Switch Friend Code: SW-8051-9575-2812 | 3DS Friend Code: 1762-3772-0251

Octane

@LetsGoRetro: Why are you replying to me when you're quoting @skywake ? I would also help a lot if you're using the quote-function or at least mention the post you're quoting, it's quite confusing to find out who said what in this way.

I'll try to leave most of reply to skywake, but I do want to correct some mistakes;

LetsGoRetro wrote:

skywake wrote:

The NX has to be a home console that also launches in 2016 alongside Zelda U.

..Very possible as it's being shown next year and Nintendo will be at the end of the 4th year of by far their lowest selling home console. A cycle that typically extends 5 years for their higher selling consoles.

Nintendo said they were going to talk about the NX next year, nobody guaranteed an actual reveal.

LetsGoRetro wrote:

skywake wrote:

A year between Zelda U on Wii U and NX effectively kills any momentum Zelda U on the NX would have brought.

..If I could single in on one point that this whole thread is based around, it's this. You just don't get it. Momentum is the entire reason I feel it's coming to NX. It ISN'T bringing ANY momentum UNLESS it comes to NX. How can people still not understand this? We thought this with SO many games before. Mario 3d World, Smash Bros U, Mario Kart 8. They were all going to be what turned the U's fortunes around. [...] Oh, you honestly think that Zelda is going to turn around the Wii U's fortunes at the end of the Wii U's FOURTH year? Come on, man. What momentum will it lose? [..] Again, many of the Wii U owners are the Nintendo faithful and they will buy the NX anyways. Nintendo knows this. They want the many, many millions more out there. That's more important than feeling that they "owe" you Zelda U for buying a Wii U.. Which brings me to the next point...

I think you completely missed his point. He never claimed that Zelda could ''save'' the Wii U. If the NX (assuming it's a home console) is coming in 2017, then it's not likely that it have Zelda U as a launch title in 2017, because it also got released on the Wii U in 2016.

skywake was correct in this, and I'll gladly rephrase what he said; Zelda U on the NX is not as probable as people make it out to be. Several things have to line up in order for it to be possible. The NX has to launch next year AND the architecture has to be similar to the Wii U's architecture to make porting easy and worthwhile.

LetsGoRetro wrote:

skywake wrote:

And even if they do all of that they also have to do something to soften the blow for the people who got a Wii U for Zelda U.

..And this is the reason everyone here keeps disagreeing with me. They can say it's my "logic" all they want, but all they're saying to me is "NO I bought a Wii U so Nintendo owes me this new Zelda title on it!!" No, they don't. They can release whatever they want on whatever console they want. And they're going to.

Sure, it's up to them. But consumers aren't going to be happy if they cannot get the most anticipated title on the console Nintendo promised to bring the game to, the Wii U. The thing is, loyal fans are only loyal fans because Nintendo creating a trust by delivering what those fans wanted. Pissing them of isn't going to make them want to buy another console more, it's going to shrink their loyal fanbase even further. Since those people are about the only ones that are keeping their current home console afloat, I doubt that's a good strategy to pursue.

LetsGoRetro wrote:

skywake wrote:

Especially given that they're still only talking about Zelda on Wii U AND drumming up the Zelda by also releasing Twilight Princess HD on Wii U.

..Really, now. You see TPHD as "drumming up the Zelda". Would there REALLY be a need for TPHD if ZeldaU was still coming, my friend? Think about it. We couldn't wait the extra year, huh? So their thinking was "If we give them an old Zelda, it'll DRUM UP THE ZELDA and get the wanting even more Zelda on this console" And they're still only talking about Zelda on Wii U? Do you think... Well, maybe it's because they're .. Not talking about NX until 2016? How the heck could they talk about it? Do you know the ONLY major change we've seen recently? They're suddenly referring to it as "The new Zelda" instead of ZeldaU. Hmm.. (and yes, I am calling it zeldau a that's been it's working title for many years)

Nintendo never called the game ''Zelda U'', that's something the fans came up with, Nintendo always called it ''the new Zelda game for Wii U'' or something along those lines. And yes, they called it ''the new Zelda game coming to the Wii U'' in their latest Direct as well.

LetsGoRetro wrote:

skywake wrote:

If the NX is a 2017 release and Zelda U lands in 2016? The theory falls apart. If the NX is drastically different to the Wii U in terms of development? The game would be delayed even more for the NX and the theory falls apart. If the NX isn't a traditional home console and is a hybrid, micro or portable system? The theory falls apart. With Twilight Princess everything lined up for it to happen, I think it's unlikely that that will happen again.

..If, if, if. I have many if's too, and you don't seem to like those.

Untitled

Octane

skywake

The point about momentum is very simple but is obviously hard to understand given that we're still in the "hype" phase for Zelda U. Being a year away from the release of that game we can't imagine a scenario where it wouldn't sell systems. So let ignore the fact that we're talking about Zelda U and instead think of the point I was making in these terms.

If the NX was releasing tomorrow and the big launch title was Bayonetta 2 would you buy it? Or as someone who is hyped enough about that game that you'd buy hardware specifically for it do you already own a Wii U? It was a similar deal with the Wii U launch when they had all of those year old third party games. Us gamers are a fickle bunch, a year old game isn't interesting. So if the NX is a 2017 release and Zelda U sticks to 2016? This move won't give them the momentum you think it will.

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

LetsGoRetro

@Octane and @skywake

I apologize for both my inability to correctly quote, as well as using @Octane 's name when I should have responded to @skywake . I read a few responses and then went down and for some reason thought that was @Octane 's post, so again, sorry.

As for @Octane , I didn't miss the point. Your point is based off of "if the NX is coming in 2017". I have no reason to believe that. All I know about the NX is that we're learning about it in 2016, and I choose to believe that's when we're getting it, which I've explained why. Am I right? I don't know. That's just my opinion.

What is a very good point is that Zelda U is the title that Nintendo is holding on to that has the highest probability of bringing the company momentum. The question then becomes is it smart to release it on Wii U with the NX coming the same year (assuming I'm right, again). The answer is, since the Wii U is not a success, it's smarter to put it on the new console with more hope. That's much more important than not releasing a new Zelda game on Wii U because it'll get people mad who bought the console for it. I'm sorry to let you know, but people buy consoles for games that don't come to them all the time. Some people bought a Wii U expecting Metroid, some expecting F Zero... The same goes for the other consoles with Final Fanasy Versus 13/15, Kingdom Heart 3, The Last Guardian. People buy consoles all the time for games that never end up coming to them. It happens. Not only does it happen, but I'd be hard pressed to believe that any company says "We have to release this game for this console because some people bought the console wanting it and they'll leave us next gen if we don't". No, they won't. Atleast not enough of them to matter, or notice.

I'm almost positive that you're wrong that Nintendo never called the game ZeldaU, but I simply don't want to go through a bunch of videos to check. If you're right, then you're right and it does make my point about the terminology changing, but that isn't the meat of the argument anyways.

As for the little picture at the end (cute), I really feel like I've already addressed the points and didn't want to again. I don't believe Wii U is coming in 2017, I believe it's coming in 2016, as I've said. I don't know a ton about development and how similar systems need to be to have a game released on both. I do know it MATTERS since that is one reason Wii U doesn't get a ton of 3rd party support, but I also know that it CAN be done as some companies DO go ahead and go and put in the extra work to make the game run on Wii U as well as Sony/Microsoft systems. So, if those developers can do it for multiple systems, I'm quite sure Nintendo can make a Zelda game work for Wii U and NX both. And I also don't believe the NX is not a home console. Maybe it's just a home console, maybe it's a hybrid, I don't know

Let me ask this question:

Since the NX was announced to show Nintendo is still primarily focused on it's core gaming development, you would agree with me that it is either a home console or a portable, right? (Or a hybrid?) So, that brings us to the question of- Which needs upgrading more? We know that's the Wii U, right? Why was the New 3DS released if this is it's replacement? So that they can release like 4 games that only run on it? It just seems more likely to me that the NX is a home console. Nintendo can't sit there when the Wii U is bombing and do nothing.

LetsGoRetro

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