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Topic: Wii Motion Plus VS Project Natal VS Sony's Wand-Your thoughts

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clicketyclick

21. Posted:

__Stevie wrote:

Boom Blox ?

That's a sports game. :D

And all that grabbing and sliding stuff was IR anyway.

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valleyoftheunos

22. Posted:

The throwing and sliding in Boom Blox was pure motion control and it was great.

valleyoftheunos

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Stevie

23. Posted:

It is a puzzle game the same way chess is a puzzle/board game but can be played competitively kind of making it a sport. Jenga and chess are not sports.

There are some motion controls in this game and even with the push/pull parts you can twist a piece you have grabbed or throw it about.

Boom Blox would be pants without Wii controls and you know it.

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Adam

24. Posted:

@ Click Woman,
Don't tell me what to wear.

I think some of the failed attempts were failures (in my eyes, not in sales) due to the limitations of the remote, not because motion control wouldn't work in theory. To that end, I'm hoping Motion+ allows developers to work around this. WarioWare would be a much better game if the controls, you know, worked. So mini-game compilations can use motion well, too, though that's just as obvious as sports; I should have included that in my earlier post.

I would like to think there were other noble but failed attempts to use motion control outside of these two genres, but I can't seem to remember any others.

They really can't do away with motion or IR now though because the genres they do enhance, they enhance the heck out of. An incidental benefit of this is that games that don't use motion controls are being refined and simplified to work with the Wii remote held NES-style, which I quite like.

Sony and Microsoft's techs don't have this side effect, so I'm less interested in their "controllers," but I think and hope the Wii remote is here to stay beyond this console generation, more due to the simplified, traditional controls than the motion / IR.

Edited on by Adam

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Chrono_Cross

25. Posted:

I have already said 3 games. MP3 Corruption, SMG, and Madworld which all three enhanced the controls to the gameplay/genre in a significant way. Just because you didn`t think so doesn`t mean they weren`t.
Theres even other games like the NPC titles, Samba de Amigo, Excite Truck and Excitebots. All of which enhanced the game. And more are to be found on Wii. As for it`s competition... eh, not so much.

Pretty much a lot of sports titles also include this “enhancement” you so speak of. Maddens, FIFAs, Punch-Out, Wii Sports 1 & 2, Mario Strikers, etc.

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clicketyclick

26. Posted:

__Stevie wrote:

It is a puzzle game the same way chess is a puzzle/board game but can be played competitively kind of making it a sport. Jenga and chess are not sports.

Sure, but Jenga was purely IR controlled. As for the rest, you know that throwing stuff hard is an olympic sport. :p

The IR-to-waggle didn't always work so well, and hopefully that'll be fixed with Motion+. I suppose that's one example of a game that wouldn't work on other consoles just considering the motion controls, but still, the point remains, there are very few of these games, as I said, and that's not for a lack of effort. Motion controls just don't go well with traditional games, unless they're sports games.

Even when the controls are enhanced so they are more responsive and have fewer limitations, I just don't see its applicability to traditional non-sports games. The forcing of motion controls on games actually detracted from a lot of them. If I had to rank them in order of stupidity, I'd rank them as follows: 1) Natal 2) Motion+ 3) Sony wand. Should be fairly obvious why.

Edited on by clicketyclick

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Adam

27. Posted:

@ Chrono Cross
I haven't played Madworld, but the other two aren't good examples of motion controls. MP3 had fine IR control, but the motion controls were completely unnecessary. I can hardly imagine how anyone would be interested in turning a Wii remote to turn a switch. Somewhat amusing novelty the first time you do it, but hardly innovative and there's no challenge or fun to it. Galaxy you just shake the controller to spin. Wow. The IR segments aren't bad, but again, it's IR, not motion.

The NPC titles are mostly IR control except the DK game, which is just replacing the older bongo controller, which was in turn just a glorified controller that you could hit harder (though pretty amusing for that!). And the racing games you listed fall in the sports category as well.

Haven't played Samba de Amigo, myself. Not even really sure what it is.

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clicketyclick

28. Posted:

Chrono+Cross wrote:

Pretty much a lot of sports titles also include this “enhancement” you so speak of. Maddens, FIFAs, Punch-Out, Wii Sports 1 & 2, Mario Strikers, etc.

Adding on to what Adam said already, many people were extremely frustrated by Samba de Amigo's motion controls and thought it ruined the game. Racing games are sports games, and of course, I asked for non-sports games, so all the sports games you mentioned are irrelevant. (Although many people play those sports games with the regular non-motion controlled options when available, so that's a bad sign.)

I think you're getting confused between IR and motion controls, judging by how you bring up Metroid and NPC games.

Edited on by clicketyclick

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BrazCanaMan

29. Posted:

the way i see it is at least with M$, project natal is using a different kind of motion control. $ony is just blantantly ripping off the wiimote (surprise, surprise)

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Chrono_Cross

30. Posted:

@Adam
I see what you mean :) But Samba de Amigo is music rythm game where you shake the Wiimote and Nunchuck like Maracas in an innovative way never before done. Stupid/pointless music which gets very annoying.

But seriously no offense Adam but I kinda like to watch you debate since your pretty much always right :D
Carry on.

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Stevie

31. Posted:

@clickityclick - If the games from Boom Blox were to feature in the olympics i would definitely take more interest :)

I do agree with the points you make but you did challenge people to name 1 game, i hope like Adam has mentioned Motion+ will fix this and we start to see some good use of the Wii's motion controls in a variety of different gaming genres. I have a feeling that the shovelware developers will not rise to the challenge, but there are at least a few developers trying to make decent Wii games now so there is at least some hope.

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Adam

32. Posted:

Chrono+Cross wrote:

your pretty much always right :D

I agree completely. Good point. Excellent point, actually.

Edited on by Adam

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clicketyclick

33. Posted:

Chrono+Cross wrote:

@Adam
I see what you mean :)
But seriously no offense Adam but I kinda like to watch you debate since your pretty much always right :D
Carry on.

He's only right because he was agreeing with me and saying the exact same thing.

Me: "MP3's motion controls were kinda annoying for the most part. Some were okay. Nothing I couldn't live without. SMG's waggle attack was something I could really live without."

He: "MP3 had fine IR control, but the motion controls were completely unnecessary. I can hardly imagine how anyone would be interested in turning a Wii remote to turn a switch. Somewhat amusing novelty the first time you do it, but hardly innovative and there's no challenge or fun to it. Galaxy you just shake the controller to spin. Wow."

Same answer. In fact, I'm almost certain that Adam is my alt name and we're really the same person.

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Chrono_Cross

34. Posted:

I agree with Adam and Stevie on the “Wii motion plus will fix this and we`ll see devs start to make good use of the Wiimote” quote.
Spending 20 dollars for an attachment for more precise controls goes along ways for a small price.

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Adam

35. Posted:

Hey hey, I've been complaining about Metroid Prime 3 since '85. Give me some credit.

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clicketyclick

36. Posted:

Okay, well, can people come up with a way that motion+ can be implemented in non-sports, non-racing, and non-minigames that will enhance the game and not just replace button presses? I mean, if you want developers to implement it well, then tell us how they should be implementing it.

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Chrono_Cross

37. Posted:

clicketyclick wrote:

Chrono+Cross wrote:

@Adam
I see what you mean :)
But seriously no offense Adam but I kinda like to watch you debate since your pretty much always right :D
Carry on.

He's only right because he was agreeing with me and saying the exact same thing.

Me: "MP3's motion controls were kinda annoying for the most part. Some were okay. Nothing I couldn't live without. SMG's waggle attack was something I could really live without."

He: "MP3 had fine IR control, but the motion controls were completely unnecessary. I can hardly imagine how anyone would be interested in turning a Wii remote to turn a switch. Somewhat amusing novelty the first time you do it, but hardly innovative and there's no challenge or fun to it. Galaxy you just shake the controller to spin. Wow."

Same answer. In fact, I'm almost certain that Adam is my alt name and we're really the same person.

And my statement of Adam pretty much always being right is still correct. Now as for you Clickety Chick I find you sort of annoying. Just like that last thread with the Conduit for an example.

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clicketyclick

38. Posted:

Chrono+Cross wrote:

Now as for you Clickety Chick I find you sort of annoying. Just like that last thread with the Conduit for an example.

Looks like you're aiming to get this one locked as well. Good luck and godspeed, but you should know that only I/Adam have the power to get threads locked. Now, back to the actual subject matter...

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Adam

39. Posted:

Let's leave that thread in that thread.

As for Motion+, I could see it working if used sparsely in adventure games. For example, if the next Zelda were paced more like Shadow of the Colossus with a lot of exploration breaking up the action segments, that could work. But consistent motion in any long, traditional game is going to be irritating no matter how well implemented.

Edited on by Adam

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warioswoods

40. Posted:

I believe the sports genre is being expanded a bit unfairly here -- Mario Kart -- and perhaps even Excitebots -- is not really a sports game, it's a party-ish arcade game geared towards zany multiplayer. Categorizing it in the sports genre is just about as misleading as calling a run n' jump platformer a game of track and field. And motion controls for the steering work wonderfully, if you ask me; far more enjoyable than the controls on any previous Kart title, due to the way it forces you to retain absolute calm and control in the midst of all the mayhem; you can't just jerk left and right to make little adjustments, you have to carefully and gracefully steer through bad situations. And, while it was said in jest I believe, Boom Blox certainly isn't sports, and it does combine IR with motion quite nicely.

I don't get the criticism of WarioWare, either -- that game led to some of the most enjoyably ridiculous multiplayer sessions I ever had with a couple of corny, good-natured friends, playing the running game where you keep passing the remote and playing games at ever increasing speeds. Its controls worked perfectly fine; there were a couple games that were more challenging, but if you thought about it and applied the motion carefully, it worked perfectly well. I actually believe being a gamer and thinking in the usual control terms is a huge handicap on some of these games, by the way - a very non-gamer oriented female who was present was immediately able to complete most of the minigames that gave me difficulty the first several times through, for I was over thinking how I moved the remote.

I do agree that the IR is even more crucial to the Wii remote than the other motion sensing, but that's not a problem at all -- it's clear that the system's developers always envisioned a combination of IR and motion to be the guiding controls for the system; in other words, they are just two parts of the same idea, not separate abilities than should be evaluated apart from one another. Wii Play was all about showing the different ways that IR can be used to detect distance from the television, angle, etc, and how that can then be combined with movements to take it a bit further. Even with Motion +, it's just adding a third element that combines with the previous two to add even more precision -- it still needs the previous motion sensing and the IR to perfectly position the remote -- all three functions are unified.

Zack & Wiki, by the way, is another great example of combining IR and motion in order to create a wonderful gaming experience. Even IR by itself is not just for shooters or a couple of limited genres, either; take a game like Trauma Center, for example, is great fun alone or in co-op, and depends entirely on IR controls to be the game it is; it would simply fall flat on any other system.

I would never buy a system based on a gamepad again, not only due to the games, but for the user interface -- it feels so clunky, awkward, and torturous now to have to navigate menus and settings with a gamepad. I love just picking up the comfortable remote, turning on the Wii, smoothly browsing for a game, and launching right into it -- or grabbing menus items and quickly sliding them around into the desired places with ease. It seems like it took Nintendo to finally bring the user interface for gaming systems out of a tremendous stagnation. A thumbstick for navigating menus is akin to those horrible little nubs they once put on laptop keyboards, before trackpads finally became smooth enough to make such an appendage pointless.

Also, on Wii Music, I know that Adam stated he'd prefer buttons, but I completely disagree. The motion controls, once mastered, offer a very precise control of dynamics, which is absolutely crucial. I can just barely move the bow in order to evoke the lightest sound from the violin, and then quickly move that up to a full resounding note. On the drums (particularly in balance board mode), you can get anything from a light tap to a resounding hit. I don't see how you could replicate that range on a gamepad, unless you have the player moving the analogue stick in order to effect dynamic changes, but that sounds terribly awkward.

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