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Topic: Was Anybody Actually Offended by Obama's Education Speech?

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Magi

61. Posted:

I always find it amusing that our government preaches RESPONSIBILITY on one hand, while handing out billiions of dollars to those who were clearly not resonsibile from the other. Where was that hypocrit thread...

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warioswoods

62. Posted:

@this nonsense about having changed his speech

False, utterly and completely false. They stated the broad outline of the speech from the start, and it was exactly what you got in the final product. The only change that was made was not in the speech at all, it was a slight adjustment to the teaching materials that went out to try to get kids to write about the speech afterwards. The kids were supposed to do what you'd expect after a speech like this, by writing what they would do to improve their own responsibility, and some out there unfortunately made a big deal about the line "how you can help president Obama," which was at best an unfortunate synecdoche for the most benign thing in the world, ie. how can you help your country.

@Jackolantern

I also daresay that MSNBC leans more than "a little" to the left when you have anchors like Chris Matthews getting "thrills" up their legs over Obama speeches. And Matthews used to be a competent journalist too... it's a shame.

You clearly don't understand Chris Matthews. This is one of the countless cases where a bias that is not partisan in nature is suddenly distorted to look strictly partisan and ideological. If you watch him at length, you'll understand where Matthews is coming from; he's obsessed with history, public engagement, and the art of politics. The strongest "bias" he has is simply that he hates cynicism and believes in the transformative power of politics when carried out well in thoughtful speeches, historic acts, etc. For this reason, and not for any motive involving a party or ideological preference, he was genuinely moved by Obama's speech on race, which was a truly unique event in how it tackled a complex subject in a manner that did full justice to that complexity and that recognized some ambiguities that most pass over.

Nearly all of the media biases are something other than purely partisan or ideological, and some of those are problematic while others can be beneficial within certain bounds. I suppose it's just easier and more comforting, however, for many out there to keep beating the dead populist trope of resentment towards those "elites" with their "liberal agendas." They sip latte, etc. How infuriating.

@Jackolantern on this deficit issue

That will take another thread to hash out, if you really want do go down the road of economic approaches and theory, but there are enormous differences between the ways in which and circumstances under which Obama and Bush have contributed to the deficit. Spending or deficit reduction should ideally be counter-cyclical, so that you're paying down the deficit during good economic times, enabling you to dip into the red for stimulus during a recession in order to hopefully mitigate the unemployment effects; Clinton started paying down the deficit when we were in a boom in the 90s, but Bush simply kept spending into the red, and cutting taxes, when we were in not only a boom but a situation clearly headed for an eventual crash, ie. the ideal scenario in which you need to be careful so that you will be able to spend when crisis hits.

Twitter is a good place to throw your nonsense.
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Vendetta

63. Posted:

warioswoods wrote:

The kids were supposed to do what you'd expect after a speech like this, by writing what they would do to improve their own responsibility, and some out there unfortunately made a big deal about the line "how you can help president Obama," which was at best an unfortunate synecdoche for the most benign thing in the world, ie. how can you help your country.

You believe these words weren't thoughtfully chosen? The master communicator himself, and his team who pore over every word, and structure speeches for rhythm and meter... they lazily put that sentence together, drew those words from a hat, did they? How exactly does one give him so much credit for his masterful rhetoric and presentation (it is, frighteningly), and at the same time dismiss as thoughtless the times he overreaches?

Turbo Genesis 64 wrote:

The real judge of a President durning their time in office is if they brought the Nation Debt down. Since 1945, Every Democrat President has brought down the National Debt!!!!

AAAAAAAAAHAHAAAAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAAAAA(catches breath.....)AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHHHAAAAAA'AAAAAHAHAHAAA! Hysterical! Thanks for that! I'm gonna go light a candle for Jimmy Carter now.

Ex cineribus resurgo
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The_Fox

64. Posted:

[quote=orlick]

WWII - US supports allies unitl Peral Harbor FORCES them to war....

Cold War - inevitable. Who rebuilds war torn Europe - the Marshall Plan or the Ten Year Plan?

[quote]

Okay, a couple of things here. You do know that the cold war wasn't an actual war, right?
And with WWII, it wasn't an issue of Democrats leading us to war, so that doesn't hold up either.

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

-President John Adams

Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

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The_Fox

65. Posted:

@jockolatern
Really? MSNBC is getting their cues from the White House? At least my claim had a source to back it up. McClellan's personal actions after he left office doesn't mean it's untrue out of hand, now does it?

If you want more claims of the mockery of news that Fox News puts forth, here's a good read.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1067

or, how about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel_controversies (yes, it's Wikipedia, but its sources are cited so feel free to check them for yourself)

Maybe this?
http://www.slate.com/id/2119864/

or....
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Fox_News (again, it's sources are cited to be checked)

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

-President John Adams

Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

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Vendetta

66. Posted:

See how easy it is for us "grown ups" to change each others' minds? And some people still deny there's an active movement to recruit youngsters...

It's been fun, but I'm done for now fellas. Don't hurt each other.
Stay cool,
-V

Ex cineribus resurgo
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The Conduit: 2622 0458 3119· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Water Warfare: 4726 5832 1608· · · · · · · Onslaught: 0388 6842 8268

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orlick

67. Posted:

[quote=orlick][quote]WWII - US supports allies unitl Peral Harbor FORCES them to war....

Cold War - inevitable. Who rebuilds war torn Europe - the Marshall Plan or the Ten Year Plan?

The+Fox wrote:

Okay, a couple of things here. You do know that the cold war wasn't an actual war, right?
And with WWII, it wasn't an issue of Democrats leading us to war, so that doesn't hold up either.

Well yes acutally the Cold WAR was called a war fox - call it whatever you like?

Also yes - read my post, the point was that Democrat did not start wars because they were war mongers. I was responding to a different post.- which I quoted....

A

Ben Cartwright: You and your education.
Adam Cartwright: Education is progress! Now what have you got against it?
Ben Cartwright: I don't have anything against education - as long as it doesn't interfere with your thinking!

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brooks83

68. Posted:

warioswoods wrote:

You clearly don't understand Chris Matthews. This is one of the countless cases where a bias that is not partisan in nature is suddenly distorted to look strictly partisan and ideological. If you watch him at length, you'll understand where Matthews is coming from; he's obsessed with history, public engagement, and the art of politics. The strongest "bias" he has is simply that he hates cynicism and believes in the transformative power of politics when carried out well in thoughtful speeches, historic acts, etc. For this reason, and not for any motive involving a party or ideological preference, he was genuinely moved by Obama's speech on race, which was a truly unique event in how it tackled a complex subject in a manner that did full justice to that complexity and that recognized some ambiguities that most pass over.

I could be wrong but I don't believe it was the race speech that gave Chris Matthews the "thrill" in his leg, but even if it was that was not the only occurance of Matthew's obvious bias. How about when he went on Leno and said that if you don't cry at an Obama speech that you are un-American?

Edited on by brooks83

brooks83

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warioswoods

69. Posted:

Matthews certainly has his own "biases" that are very strong, as I said, but it's simply incorrect to portray it as a primarily partisan or ideological bias. Again, he loves the art and substance of politics, and is very enthusiastic when any politician speaks in ringing, uncynical, yet kitsch-less words about our nation, future, and so forth. He admitted to voting for Bush in 2000, by the way, so that bias doesn't always lead left or right, it just leads away from cynicism.

I have a problem with all the claims running around about "liberal bias" in the media mainly due to the fact that, in most cases, there are different sorts of bias unique to each newscaster or network, and these are very often detrimental to "liberal" goals if you look and listen closely. Now, Keith Olberman is certainly an example of ideological bias, as is Bill O'Reilly, as is Lou Dobbs, but not all newscasters follow that mold.

Twitter is a good place to throw your nonsense.
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Vendetta

70. Posted:

Hey, sorry... it's just me again. Quick note:

warioswoods wrote:

He admitted to voting for Bush in 2000...

See? Voting for Bush is something you have to admit to to these people, get blamed for, etc., while voting for Gore, Kerry, Obama is something you can be proud of. Such a condescending mindset. Not pointing the finger at you, WW, it's become so prevalent that phrases like this are just a part of the standard language now.
TTFN

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The Conduit: 2622 0458 3119· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Water Warfare: 4726 5832 1608· · · · · · · Onslaught: 0388 6842 8268

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Slapshot

71. Posted:

George Washington prior to his stepping down from office because he felt like his presidency was becoming more like a king and not a leader of the people stated (not exact quote) that the two political party system would be the downfall of this country. It would end up with power hungry political politicians.Then it was the Democrats and the Federalist and now the Republicans and Democrats of course and I think it very obvious that Mr Washington saw what is happening right now even at the start of our nation. I think of this just about everytime I see all this "party bashing" or whatever you want to call it.
REPLIES TO MY EARLIER POST

  • Im NOT saying that the Democrats are the reason for Americas war and/or we should have or not went to War. Im by no means Anti War or Pro War but sadly sometimes it takes war to solve societies many issues. It happened since the start of time and will never stop. ALSO I work for a major contractor for the Navy/Coast Guard building War Ships so I make my living off of war. Its a fact of life that will always happen and I do my job the best I can for the Americans that put thier lives at risk for our freedom.
  • Im a libertarian if you havent figured that one out yet. I believe in Limited Government. YES we do need government to build roads, parks, city buildings, schools, colleges, hospitals, etc. I Do NOT believe the government has the right to take trillions of our tax dollars and just give it away to irresponsible companies at thier discretion. Do you realise there are ONLY 500 million tax paying American citizens. If you figure average gross for them is what somewhere around maybe (guessing) 60,000 yr and 30percent of that is taxed. It took us hard working Americans years and years to make the money that Obama just gave away. To me that is wrong. Especially when Teachers are loosing their jobs all over the country and we bailed out the damn car companies. My wife has a Masters Degree in special education and persueing her Doctorates right now and almost did not get rehired this year because of government cuttbacks. Figure that one out. Is that your responsibility?

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Jockolantern

72. Posted:

Fine. You win, liberals. I am absolutely in the wrong because I'm just an insensitive, idiot conservative who clearly doesn't realize that more government in my life can only be for the better. I'm also sorry, Europeans, for being just a retarded, uninformed, unintellectual right winger who clearly doesn't know that history obviously has always shown liberals to be in the right and that America is nothing more than a destructive, imperialist nuisance whose people are rooted in racism, environmental/cultural destruction, and historical distortion. I'm a no-nothing right-winger because I have never visited anywhere outside my own country, thus I couldn't possibly have seen the "finer" parts of the civilized, liberal world.

After fourteen years of being a political junkie, comments in this and a couple threads elsewhere have been the final couple of needles on the proverbial camel's back and... I'm tired of it. All of it. You liberals want to take the country to hell in a handbasket? Be my guest. Who cares if the Fox News you hate so much for being "right-wing" and "unprofessional" is outnumbered five to one by left-wing networks? Who cares that Obama can preach one thing while he and his leftist accolytes practice the exact opposite? Who cares that genuine Americans are rising up against an out-of-control government (one which has its roots in early twentieth century progressivism, not just recent events)?

I don't anymore. I've grown completely tired of caring about politics at this point in time. So, The Fox, warioswoods, et al... you win. I give up. I'm sick of fighting for now. I'm sick of fighting internet links, I'm sick of wasting my days reposting my own links just to have it all go on ad nauseum and only have it shown that I'm "clearly" the one in the wrong simply because I'm a hateful conservative who won't just admit that the media-pervasive ideals of liberalism are obviously the truth. I'm going back to something I know I can actually agree with everyone on: gaming. And maybe one day I'll actually give a damn to fight back against those I disagree with on world issues. Until then, I simply don't care to fight back any more. I've done it long enough and have always been the "evil conservative," so I'm through.

You win, libs. I'll see everyone back in the gaming threads.

Edited on by Jockolantern

Jockolantern

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The_Fox

73. Posted:

@jockolatern:
We win!? Yes! That was easier than I thought! Chalk another win in our records!
Now, for a few of your statements:

"You liberals want to take the country to hell in a handbasket? Be my guest."
Please. This is the type of mindless comments political discussions always seem to get cluttered with. Clinton in cutting military spending! He's taking the country to hell in a handbasket! Bush is starting wars! He's taking the country to hell in a handbasket! It adds nothing and is a bit annoying.

"I've done it long enough and have always been the "evil conservative," so I'm through"
Sad if you think people assume you are evil for being conservative. I've been called all varities of commie pinko liberal bleeding heart throughout the years, and it hasn't bothered me a bit. If you want to post online about politics you need a thick skin, I guess.

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

-President John Adams

Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

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Machu

74. Posted:

I REALLY shouldn't be in here, but I won't learn. :)

Seeing Republicans standing in applause, then heckling, then clapping, then looking confused by the recent speech Obama gave to Congress, was priceless. They know he's right, but daren't admit it! Again, I wish him luck.

runs out of the room, dodging bullets

Edited on by Machu

Rawr!

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warioswoods

75. Posted:

@Machu

Sssh... you're from the UK, so any support you give our president will just be calculated as a negative according to the right wing. After all, Europe is just one big socialist mess, right? Don't you hate freedom and so forth?

Twitter is a good place to throw your nonsense.
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Machu

76. Posted:

Ha! :) I hate Gordon Brown I know that. If you guys don't want Obama, I would LOVE to have a guy like that in charge over here. Change takes time, and it will more than likely upset those, who are scared of it.

Rawr!

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Jockolantern

77. Posted:

@The Fox
"If you want to post online about politics you need a thick skin, I guess."

I had a thick skin for almost fifteen years. But after every bit of it being chipped it over the years, I'm just tired of it. I'm nowhere near new to talking politics on the web. Recent events both in my life and in the larger world have just built to the point that I've simply had enough. Stronger men than me can take up the fight. I'd much rather escape from reality nowadays, whatever that says about me. :P Statements like the "hell in a handbasket" one may be hyperdramatic and terribly cliche, but that doesn't make them any less true for what they are. I truly believe that the direction men like Obama would take us is dangerous and out of touch with the core values and foundations of this country.

But, I'm probably wrong about that too. I'm a conservative imbecile after all, so I'll just shut up and follow our dear leader until a better one comes along.

@Machu
How on earth do the Republicans standing, heckling, applauding, and being confused bear any difference from what the Democrats did when Bush gave similar speeches to Congressional joint sessions? Two sides of the same rotten coin, my friend. At least in Britain, Parliament throws candor to the wayside and just has at it with each other verbally. There are times where I wish our own Congress worked the same way.

It'd be far more entertaining, at the very least.

Jockolantern

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warioswoods

78. Posted:

@Jockolantern

I agree with you on the fact that too much attention was given to the audience outbursts during Obama's speech (and you're right, the Dems were pretty raucous during Bush's speeches as well); we'd all be better served if the media wasn't so quick to try to make a scandal out of something so minor, as they should be discussing the content of the speech instead.

Twitter is a good place to throw your nonsense.
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Slapshot

79. Posted:

@Jockolantern...... Dude Im about as far from a Liberal as they come. If your a Conserative like you say you should know that. Libertarian/Consterative is damn near the same with the exception that the Conserative party "Republicans" I have nothing for either because they are one in the same with the Democrats. They are all corrupt. I keep up with little of the this party said this OMG bullcrap. Thats all it is. I used to watch Fox News a LOT and sometimes do for Glenn Beck but he goes so over the top scaring the Sh.t out of people its ridicilous. I actually almost didnt buy a house 4 months ago because he had me thinking the whole county was going to collapse financially, I said screw it and did anyways. Me and the wife make very good money and still I was afraid because of all the "US is goin to collapse tonight, right when China come off the US dollar its over guys, listen to me its over". I like Beck but he goes too far. ITs media and they all have agendas and I have my own. Limited Government..... and when someone get up for that and runs for office I will go vote for them, until then Im going back to prob not even voting again. Its always the same agendas just with two different faces everytime. Michael Savage is about the only one I will still listen too in the media, he has no agenda and tells it just like it is. You never hear of him on ANY news source because they are all scared of him because he has no ties to Any of them.

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Turbo_Genesis_64

80. Posted:

The Republicans just seem like jerks these days. Us Dems didn't really care for Bush Jr., but we never shouted "You Lie" to him at a live address to the nation.

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