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Topic: Unpopular Gaming Opinions

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NotTelevision

The Animal Crossing one island controversy resurfaces something that I feel is becoming more and more an issue with certain games nowadays. I’m fine with the option being there to be clear, but if it never comes does that make the game truly irredeemable?

It seems like atypical and unique design choices developers make in a game are just being stamped out. As a result, more games are just starting to feel like different variations on the on the same idea. Make all the fighters totally balenced for tournaments, include a ton of custom stats for all playstyles, include a steady difficulty curve so there are no random spikes, tutorialize and make the mechanic obvious so the player never feels lost, introduce fast travel early so people don’t need to spend so much time walking, include X amount of save points so people don’t get frustrated...

I’m fine with many of these things in games and yes a lot of this is “by the book” and “correct” game design, but you are also losing something in the process. Elements of surprise (not surprise mechanics I know what you’re thinking 😀) are something I’ve come to appreciate more in games as I’ve gotten older. Those quirks differentiate certain games and make them more of a special experience as a result.

Added: Though yes, when you are talking about something so broad you need to analyze mechanics on a game by game basis.

Edited on by NotTelevision

NotTelevision

Ardisan

Which seems like a unpopular opinion on here (Which I guess makes sense in some ways). I find game companies like Nintendo that strike down fans that just want to make something that other fans in the community would enjoy in good fun and entertainment, disgustingly greedy. I find their use of "protecting" just a safe way to say they don't want anyone to enjoy anything they've made unless they buy their products. Not allowing fans to freely share what they made for each other unless its the ones they pick and choose. I just cant understand this morally that I gave up arguing with people about this.

I barely forum.

glaemay

@Ardisan Be happy to be free to complain about that. When Sony shut down a free fan game they also shut down reports and complains about it. Nintendo is far from being the biggest control freak company of the industry.

glaemay

Cotillion

@Ardisan The biggest issue here is, where do you draw the line? What do they do when a precedent is set?
Someone making homemade crochet characters and selling them at a convention, for example. Are they hurting Nintendos business or keeping revenue from Nintendo? Not likely. But then a big company does it, on a large scale on a distribution network. The very well could be, and not only from Nintendo, but the company that Nintendo licensed to do it officially.
I can imagine it'd be harder to shut down the large company, because legally you're allowing people to do it.
I get what you're saying, but where's the line? How do you manage allowing some and not others without official licensing? How do smaller companies keep their IPs and products safe from theft by larger companies? These same restrictions that large companies use that people hate so much are also what protects the small. I never see a realistic solution to this offered.
I'm not really arguing against your point, because I can see both sides, but what's the solution? Big companies have to let their IP be used by whomever and small companies don't? Only small or individual projects are allowed, but large ones not? Everyone can use whatever they want, however they want? Then the loopholes....what would stop Sony from creating a small company to use Nintendo IP to make "fan games" and sell it on Sony systems? It becomes a legal nightmare unless you blanket block everything. Just curious as to what your solution to this would be.

Cotillion

kkslider5552000

I mean the solution is that Nintendo has no need to care this much about IP laws that are only useful for protecting smaller companies in the first place. That's it, that's the entire solution. A lot of companies have been either ignoring or directly working with fans who make quality stuff for a decade. All video game companies that are all still around because surprise, surprise, fans don't have the marketing budget of the people who own the IP they're using. And in the first place, figuring out a reasonable balance of these things is probably not that difficult compared to the work people in these companies do.

tbh I could've just said "slippery slope fallacy" and just not written a real post, because that's all it is

Edited on by kkslider5552000

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LzWinky

Ardisan wrote:

Which seems like a unpopular opinion on here (Which I guess makes sense in some ways). I find game companies like Nintendo that strike down fans that just want to make something that other fans in the community would enjoy in good fun and entertainment, disgustingly greedy. I find their use of "protecting" just a safe way to say they don't want anyone to enjoy anything they've made unless they buy their products. Not allowing fans to freely share what they made for each other unless its the ones they pick and choose. I just cant understand this morally that I gave up arguing with people about this.

So fans should be allowed to copy Nintendo’s games into Dreams?

Or they should be allowed to make a Smash game that may compete with Ultimate?

Where should the line be drawn?

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kkslider5552000

LzWinky wrote:

So fans should be allowed to copy Nintendo’s games into Dreams?

Or they should be allowed to make a Smash game that may compete with Ultimate?

Where should the line be drawn?

I just...responded to these points. They're different questions technically, but my response is literally the same. Do you see my response? It's right above here...I just wrote it. It's right there. I just did this.

"Or they should be allowed to make a Smash game that may compete with Ultimate?" There's been a fanmod community for Smash for a decade, and the most recent Smash is the best selling fighting game ever. Your cause and effect possibility is a myth.

(for the record, my point is less "there is no valid reason to protect your IPs" and more "there's basically no reality in which this negatively effect Nintendo in any real way, and Nintendo would be smart to get some positive PR for stuff that will often be made regardless of Nintendo's wishes, which is what other companies do successfully already")

Edited on by kkslider5552000

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iKhan

I don't think Pokemon Black and White has a good story relative to any other story-driven JRPG. It's just "good for a Pokemon game", and even then Pokemon Colosseum had a better story.

The reality is that the fundamental structure and design of Pokemon games isn't accommodating to a grand story, so trying to make one is kind of fruitless unless they completely upend the structure (which is what Colosseum did). There is no party, and the main objective is completely self centered (beating all the gyms). The most "character" they can give your avatar is just telling you that "oh hey you are a strong trainer", because there isn't much else special about your main character. There isn't a mystery surrounding your origins like in Fire Emblem, and even if there was, again, there's no party, so there isn't an effective way to develop character relationships.

One of the reason I like the older games is that they aren't desperately trying to achieve the futile goal of creating an engaging story with such a limited structure. They accept what they are, and instead go for a more laissez-faire approach to a story that takes the back seat.

Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F

Buizel

iKhan wrote:

One of the reason I like the older games is that they aren't desperately trying to achieve the futile goal of creating an engaging story with such a limited structure. They accept what they are, and instead go for a more laissez-faire approach to a story that takes the back seat.

Completely agree. Pokemon never needed much of a story, and it certainly never needed the number of cutscenes we've had in the past 3 generations. Gens 1 and 2 had perfectly fine narratives as they were IMO.

That said - I wouldn't mind a story-heavy Pokemon game. But I agree that they'd struggle within the constraints of the current set-up. I think they'd have to change the whole structure of the game to revolve around the story (much like Colosseum and XD).

Edited on by Buizel

At least 2'8".

iKhan

@Buizel

That would be sweet. There have been so many amazing fan and official projects that have utilized the premise of Pokemon to tell great stories.

I see no reason why they can't tell a grand tale about some non-avatar character who becomes a hero with his or her team of Pokemon. Make it linear, but scrap the gyms, and and use the story to drive the game. Give the player a party, and make all the battles double or triple battles, or give the player the option to change teams.

I'd love to see a spinoff with a battle system like XC2, where you have a full party of character controlling a variety of blades.

Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F

kkslider5552000

iKhan wrote:

I don't think Pokemon Black and White has a good story relative to any other story-driven JRPG. It's just "good for a Pokemon game", and even then Pokemon Colosseum had a better story.

The reality is that the fundamental structure and design of Pokemon games isn't accommodating to a grand story, so trying to make one is kind of fruitless unless they completely upend the structure (which is what Colosseum did). There is no party, and the main objective is completely self centered (beating all the gyms). The most "character" they can give your avatar is just telling you that "oh hey you are a strong trainer", because there isn't much else special about your main character. There isn't a mystery surrounding your origins like in Fire Emblem, and even if there was, again, there's no party, so there isn't an effective way to develop character relationships.

One of the reason I like the older games is that they aren't desperately trying to achieve the futile goal of creating an engaging story with such a limited structure. They accept what they are, and instead go for a more laissez-faire approach to a story that takes the back seat.

I strongly disagree with this. Not as much as a defense of Black and White but because Pokemon Colosseum is just another Team Rocket plot. There is not much else to it. I actually distinctly remember being incredibly disappointed by it for that reason. Nintendo Power and other places kept hyping the game up as some more mature, darker, story driven game, I was getting so excited and its just another Team Rocket. A goofy villain team for children. It's like other Pokemon games, but less. Outside of when gaming sites tried so hard to convince me that Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts retained what made the first 2 games so good despite the radical shift in direction (this happened during previews, I promise you), I never felt more mislead by previews of a game. The Paper Mario games might as well be SMT compared to how little this game does for darker narratives. And I was like 13 at the time and still enjoyed the kid friendly Pokemon games, so its not that, it's really that it could've been so much more and just refused to be.

I mean I can agree with the idea that Pokemon should just be its own thing. But I do appreciate that B/W tried to address one of Pokemon's biggest critiques, and actually got something decently clever and interesting out of it. I think it did things as well as you could've hoped. Unlike Colosseum, which could've been cool and different (and had the main character and setting to pull it off) and instead did nothing.

...yeah ok this was mostly me ranting about something that's bugged me for 15 years, I'm sorry. I did like XD, probably because I never felt lied to about it.

(though the real answer for a good Pokemon story are the Mystery Dungeon games, tbh)

Edited on by kkslider5552000

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Heavyarms55

@iKhan I never had much issue with Pokemon Black and White's story - though like I think about most games with this mechanic - it's hurt badly by the silent protagonist avatar. I almost never like that trope. It's very hard to make work. Off the top of my head only Zelda and Fire Emblem games have done it well. And even then, not consistently.

My primary issue with Black and White is the way they decided to use only new Pokemon during the main story with many of the new Pokemon introduced obviously just designed to fill a niche for another Pokemon they were replacing, rather than being different or interesting. And at the same time, many of the best and most creative designs locked behind absolutely absurd evolution levels. Look at Pokemon like Litwick, it doesn't evolve until level 41! And that's the most usable of the ones I am thinking of. Pokemon like Bisharp, Brivary and Mandibuzz, and the unholy master of too high evo levels, Hydreigon! It makes all of these Pokemon unusuable in the main game unless you massively overlevel and restricted you to using the bland filler Pokemon for most of the story...

The main reason I vastly prefer Black/White 2 to Black/White. At least for the most part, they realized their mistake in that regard and later games have not repeated that nonsense.

Edited on by Heavyarms55

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Heavyarms55

@DarthNocturnal Yeah, one or two lines each gen. Just the pseudo-legend and maybe one other. And it evolved so late because it had stats that were so high. 5th gen introduced a small mountain of Pokemon that all evolve very late.

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iKhan

Heavyarms55 wrote:

I never had much issue with Pokemon Black and White's story - though like I think about most games with this mechanic - it's hurt badly by the silent protagonist avatar. I almost never like that trope. It's very hard to make work. Off the top of my head only Zelda and Fire Emblem games have done it well. And even then, not consistently.

Yeah, like I said, as much as I dislike B/W for a multitude of reasons, I will acknowledge that it has a solid story for a Pokemon game. But like you said, the main protagonist being a silent avatar really hurts the story. I only get to learn about Cheren, Bianca, and N through the lens of my incidental interactions with them as I go on my own adventure. It would be a lot more interesting if the main character had something interesting about him/her that I could attach to.

Also, now that I think about it, one of the issues Pokemon tends to have with it's story is that it never offers the illusion of agency. In Zelda games, I don't mind NPCs acting like I'm an amazing hero, because there was always a distinct problem offered, and I was given the opportunity to find the solution myself. At the very least, the games will set up a scenario in which they say "if only someone could do X", and you can feel a little bit cool for being "that someone". In modern Pokemon games, the way it often works is "Oh hey there's a problem, you there, go fix it by doing X".

So no, I'm not the hero, I just follow instructions, quit saying that I'm special.

Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F

Heavyarms55

@iKhan It comes down to one of the main problems I have with the "silent protagonist" in JRPG/RPGs. Very often you have situations where other characters are constantly speaking for you and making decisions for you to such and extent that it feels less like you're a character in the story, than like you're the weapon the other characters are pointing at the bad guys. I felt this really strongly in Pokemon Sun and Moon, which is very much the story of Lily and Gladion, not your story. As well as in Dragon Quest 11. In that game your party members are constantly just speaking for you. And two points that were really ruined by the silent protagonist for me were a part when a certain party member is confessing how devastated she was by your perceived death where she's just laying all her feelings out, her pain and suffering and "you're" just sitting there watching her like some kind of doll. She might as well have been talking to the wall! And then later you team up with a character who had been your enemy, after being separated from the rest of your party - said character hated you until presumably just hours prior, and suddenly is speaking for you in one cut-scene after another because your character doesn't speak. It made no sense that "you" would just let this guy speak for you.

These are just a couple examples of how not to do the silent protagonist. If you want to go that route, don't do such a story heavy game.

It's not impossible to make work. I think Breath of the Wild, albeit not as story heavy, made it work fairly well. Link still has a personality in the game and you have points where you have to answer questions - and though you don't have an actual voice, characters still respond properly as though you did reply. Another example: In Fire Emblem 3 Houses, Byleth is silent, but she (or he I suppose, I hugely prefer the girl version) has a good amount of personality just through their body language (lack of) facial expression and the few points where you do choose a response. There are still points where other characters speak up even when you're supposedly leading them, but it's a minor thing.

Anyway, I could really ramble on and on about this topic but the last thing I want to add is:

In a story heavy game with an avatar MC, you don't have to go the silent route. Look at the Mass Effect Trilogy or Star Wars KOTOR 1+2, you can really define your own version of Sheppard, Revan or the Exile but they are not silent. It's hard, it takes a lot more work but it very much can be done and done very well.

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kkslider5552000

I'm not always the biggest fan of silent protagonists, but the best video game story is Mother 3, and it's almost hilariously consistent with how the main character you're playing (even if it's a different one later!) is silent. So if the best video game story has it, I guess I fail to see the problem tbh.

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crashcontrol

Pokémon Sword and Shield aren’t that bad

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kkslider5552000

crashcontrol wrote:

Pokémon Sword and Shield aren’t that bad

this is only an unpopular opinion on r/Pokemon :V

more controversial: Paper Mario Sticker Star isn't that bad. If you ignore what a stupid and hilarious drop in quality it is from the previous games at least. As a game on its own, it is a solid 6/10 that has great core gameplay and aesthetics but mixed level design, questionable bosses and an absurd misunderstanding of why people like RPGs.

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iKhan

I think this one might be a little unique. I don't personally consider gaming to be one of my hobbies.

To me, I define a hobby as something productive, that is, something that either produces a tangible product, something that I'm constantly trying to improve at, or something that offers significant meaningful learning.

I think that for many people, gaming fills one of those roles (e.g. You love to speed run, or you keep playing certain games constantly striving for a better score, or you play something competitively). But for me, it's more like watching an action movie. Fun and relaxing, but not exactly something that I'd consider productive.

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Xyphon22

@iKhan I have a similar thought, but it's more that I can only play games that I would consider what you define as a hobby. There are certain genres that I just can't play anymore. As a kid I loved to play beat-em-ups like Double Dragon and Battletoads, schmups like Gradius, fighters like Street Fighter, and some FPSs like Doom and Goldeneye. Now, though, those games are just mindless time wastes to me and I can't do it. A game has to do something for me, to enrich my mind at least a little bit. I try to branch out when something looks especially cool or unique, but my catalog consists probably 80% or more of puzzlers, RPGs, or adventure games with puzzle elements like Zelda or point-and-clicks. Mario is probably about as mindless as I can get nowadays.

Xyphon22

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