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Topic: PC vs X1X Cost Effectiveness

Posts 81 to 100 of 211

Octane

@YummyHappyPills In the case it's an honest question. Well, you don't 'mine' bit coins, you use your PC to verify other bit coin transactions and you get rewarded with bit coins. The process is a lot complicated than that (and quite interesting), but in a nutshell, that's it.

Octane

Knuckles-Fajita

@Octane It was an honest question. Even though I'm a tech geek I'm more of a programmer than a hardware guy.

And yeah, I was confused why it's called "mining" and why it caused GPU market prices to literally double and triple.

As a British guy, I associated mining with...you know...strikes and Thatcher.

Imagine that. The ghost of Margaret Thatcher coming to confiscate GPUs from bitcoin miners causing the market purchasing price to skyrocket due to scarcity.

NLI Discord:

https://bit.ly/2IoFIvj

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Octane

@YummyHappyPills I'm sure she'd love that

Didn't know it caused GPU prices to rise. But it makes sense I think.

Anyway, a friend of mine and I had a discussion about bitcoin mining a while back, and itstead of looking up how it actually worked, we spent an entire evening speculating about it, which prompted me the next day to look up what your PC is actually doing when your 'mining' bitcoins. And I found a site that explains it rather well, so if you're interested, here's the link.

Octane

NEStalgia

@Octane But...why are GPU prices escalating because people are.....doing what exactly....to get free pseudo money....by just participating in a distributed computing exercise? That makes no sense to me at all (with admittedly huge knowledge gaps on the subject.)

@YummyHappyPills LOL, the mental gyrations around a PC/XBox thread, the market price of GPUs, bitcoin, and tying that all in a Thathcher bow is making my head hurt.

NEStalgia

Yorumi

@ThanosReXXX your points really arn't fair though. When you talk about needing to replace hardware you're not being fair to consoles. Consoles are replaced about every 5 years, and this gen is kind of showing they want to go with a shorter console cycle. So replacing parts in a PC is really not different from replacing a console in that time frame. As I said my gpu is 5 years old, it was $250 at the time, and it's still pumping out 1080p 60fps. A lot of console games are not achieving that, especially on original xone and ps4. A GTX 1080, bought today would easily last 10 years or more. It's roughly the price of an xone X. Now that's a rather extreme case today and yet once on the upgrade path that price becomes rather reasonable with factoring in that it will last easily twice as long as a console if not more.

The point about multiplayer is a huge one if that interests a person. Even at $40 for a live sub that's $200 over 5 years. That saving alone would almost pay for any upgrades, pretty much forever.

Eventually the cryptocurrency crap with end. I think a lot of people have trouble understanding just how much things have changed in the last few years. Consoles have gotten much more expensive, especially when factoring in multiplayer. PCs on the other hand have gotten much much cheaper and much more user friendly.

@NEStalgia I don't overclock anything on mine and it works great. I never had overclocking in mind when I was talking parts just so you know. Overall here's what I see as the comparison and why I'm so much a fan of PC right now.

The cost difference is essentially negligible. As you saw from my build they're almost the same, sales are good on both, and multiplayer may or may not be a factor. So overall right now cost just really isn't a factor in favor of either one.

Where I see PC taking the lead is in it's extras. Discord is fantastic for voice chat and groups and all that, it's free. There's no generations on PC, and it's essentially fully backwards compatible. Games from the 80's run on pcs. I say "essentially" because you do find the occasional old game that doesn't want to work and you have to mess with fan patches and whatever else.

You have a huge range of options for controllers. Obviously you have to spend money on said controllers but you have the option of finding the perfect controller for every game. Flight sticks, steering wheels, odd shapes, keyboard etc. There's a lot more reason to make these on pc than on consoles so you tend to have a lot more options.

Cloud saves. Many games on both gog and steam support this(even old games). It's free again and it's nice if you have other devices. I have stardew valley for example, I play on my desktop, but when I'm on vacation I have a laptop and I just pull the save in and am good to go. No problem installing it on multiple systems too.

Basically I see pc's as just much more consumer friendly now. You know you're not going to lose your games every 5 years(I know you can keep old hardware hooked up but you know what I mean), especially with gog, those are already DRM free executables. Even if gog shuts down there is zero fear of losing games.

Yorumi

Nintendo Network ID: yorumi

Octane

@NEStalgia Don't quote me on this, but mining bitcoins means you're doing a lot of complicated maths (dividing and multiplying big prime numbers and the likes, the stuff you can't do on paper) which I presume is quite taxing on the GPU (correct me if I'm wrong). People want bigger or more GPUs in that case; the demand for GPUs increases, and so does their price.

'Professional' bitcoins miners have rooms, or sometimes an entire building, filled with computers to mine bitcoins.

Octane

Yorumi

@NEStalgia BTW some of the things you see as unlovable are more like the fine detail battles. Plywood is doing a good job explaining things and his advice is solid. I don't mean this in a bad way at all but some of the things he's posting are kind of like asking which is better a ps4 or xone. You're going to get a whole bunch of technical details and things that at the end of the day don't matter a whole lot. Again he's doing a great job of giving you all the info, it just had the side of effect of making it look a lot worse than it actually is. For the most part a pc behaves like a console now. Turn it on and it works, it doesn't matter a whole lot if you have a ryzen or intel cpu, or a amd or nvidia gpu. It's going to work, it's going to do what you need it to, and the prices are similar.

There's always the next thing on the horizon so you just have to commit at some point. It's like when's the best time to buy a console? Well at launch it's the highest price with the fewest games, later on you have the looming next gen console. At some point you just have to buy it, pc is the same.

@Octane, @YummyHappyPills also for NES as well. For cryptocurrency basically your computer does stuff and you're rewarded with some cryptocurrency for doing it. The faster it can do the task the more currency you can get in the same time. It varies by currency, but for some it's fastest to let the gpu do it. As a result there's huge demand for gpus. People build systems with like 20 gpus for mining. As a result demand for gpus is outpacing supply and so that causes high gpu prices.

Yorumi

Nintendo Network ID: yorumi

Octane

@Yorumi Thanks for the confirmation! That's pretty much how I imagined it was going.

Octane

NEStalgia

@Yorumi Yeah, I forgot about OC until Plywood brought it up, and I realized I hadn't commented. In many PC gaming circles OC is simply assumed standard procedure, so Plywoods recommendations may not be applicable as-is. Though he's all-in on the Ryzen setup and he's probably right to sit back and watch it unfold. Then I can start this topic again in 2 years after sitting back and watching Ryzen veer around

Cloud saves. Such a shame, the only device I have any real use for cloud saves on is Switch. And it's the only one without it

Personally I try not to think too much of "long term" support for games. With ever changing hardware and drivers and patches, I tend to not assume a game will work forever on PC any more than games with required patches on a console that shuts down. I'm surprised some older games do work still, and it's a good perk, but I don't think I'd base decisions on that aspect.

And yeah, I know plywood's going the whole "the future tech and upgrade path is x!" route...he's not wrong...but that's also a lifestyle I'd never return to and only am showing interest now due to an impression the world looks more like you describe it and less like the way he describes it (which is how it was in the late 90's and early '00s.) Trying to plot along future tech to save money later usually ends up just costing more, in my experience. It LOOKS future proof, except for that ONE detail that makes it not really a good plan. I remember buying into AGP. And then the AMD socket, forget which one that was future proof! And it was!! Except it only supported x memory speed so the next upgrade would "work" but didn't make much sense to not replace it all anyway, etc because it would be bottlenecked. That ryzen setup he described coming out next month sounds cool. And upgradable (maybe).....but "next months' tech!" is never fun. I was a SATA early adopter. That was not fun.

Of course with the whole crypto thing....I do wonder when GPUs will be buyable. FWIW my current Haswell box has an HD6870 from 2012.... The THIRD card bought for that system because the first two died out within a year or two. Which may have been taken out by an iffy PSU that finally died mid-use years later after rare, random spontaneous power-downs for years that seemed inexplicable. And I rarely even ran any games on it.

@Yorumi @Octane So, basically it's distributed encryption-breaking by unknown shadowy operators where participants don't mind contributing to the encryption-breaking because they don't know what they're processing and they don't need to know and smart people don't ask questions, they just take the money, all operated under the light of day with conveniently laundered, investment manipulated funds?

I can't imagine how every institution keeps getting breached.

NEStalgia

ThanosReXXX

@NEStalgia Yeah... Well, before I jump off the boat, I honestly wonder why that always comes up here and there in the various topics. In general, most controllers nowadays are pretty ergonomic anyways, there's just a difference in button and stick placement and the response/feel of those controls, but other than that, they should fit most hands.

Mine aren't giant-sized, nor are they small, so I guess I'm the average Joe, and I can comfortably use all these controllers, which naturally makes me think that someone criticizing any of them, must either have BF hands, or teeny-tiny ones. Or some deficiency that makes them cramp up when holding a controller for too long.

I can play for hours on end with any of my controllers, even with the much criticized Wii U Game Pad, without any bodily damage, let alone any mental damage...

As for those Xbox Live prices: I've literally NEVER bought the official cards, so you can definitely take my word for it that you don't have to take those ridiculous official prices into account. It's also not season- or moment bound, just a simple matter of mixing and matching a certain number of online code purchasing sites, and they offer deals the whole year round, for both consoles and even for certain PC content. I'm VERY much in the know concerning these things, since I always hunt them down vigorously, not just for myself, but also for friends and family.

The cheapest I've paid is around €32, which now comes down to $39,27 but was less back then. Still, $40 is easily possible, and like I said it's possible to find deals anytime of the year.

Here you go:
https://www.cdkeys.com/xbox-live/memberships/12-month-xbox-li...
https://www.g2a.com/xbox-live.html?___store=englishus
https://www.cheapxboxlivecodes.com/xbox-live-gold-subscriptio...
http://cardscodes.com/index.html

And here's a price watch/comparison site:
http://www.allkeyshop.com/blog/buy-xbox-live-gold-membership-...

Currently, most prices for Xbox Live are slightly over $40, but they literally change every month, which is why I keep tabs on all of them to get the best deals. And all those sites are also good for PS4 and PC deals as well, so you can already use them now.

Oh, and as for my upload speeds on the Xbox One S... phew!!! Like a rocket...

'The console wars are like boobs. Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

Nintendo Network ID: ThanosReXX

NEStalgia

@ThanosReXXX I admit that when under stress, such as any challenging video game, I tend to crush handheld objects until you can hear the plastic/wood/metal creaking and weakening. My childhood music teachers had a blast with that So the hand grip size does matter to prevent hand cramping/wrist issues. X1/X360/SwPro are good at that. Dual Shock, not so much.

Neat links. I would never EVER plug a credit card into one, but they take Paypal so I'm good. Oh, look, they also take Bitcoin! Excuse me while I order 20+ GPUs.....

Yeah....PSN....nobody has ever accused it of being fast. Or tolerable. But showing a 1.5 upload is pretty lame....I'd have thought itw as a problem with my ethernet cable, but that wouldn't allow download to be many times that

NEStalgia

Octane

@NEStalgia No, there's nothing shady about it, at least not in theory. There's a limit on how many bitcoins can exist in total: 21 million, there are a little over 12 million in circulation right now. It's a simple demand and supply equation, and they are pricey these days. You can either buy them, and sell them when their value increases, or you can mine them, until they've reached the 21 million threshold.

Because it's a currency with no bank, there's nobody to check on the transactions. That's were mining comes into play. You're basically 'selling' you computational power to verify transactions, making sure nothing goes wrong and making sure people aren't creating bitcoins artificially on their own. In turn, you get rewarded with bitcoins, and that's how more of them enter the market.

Octane

Yorumi

@NEStalgia the way I approach pc gaming is when I decide I need an upgrade I do a few quick google searches. Basically check out reviews of a few gpus, or cpus, depending on what I'm buying. Find one that fits my budget and system that reviews decently. Buy it, plug it in, and don't care for another several years when I decide I need another upgrade.

I do pay attention to the tech as it comes out, not so much to buy but more just to stay informed of my options. What's above though is literally all the thought I put into my pc and it's worked well for me.

And yeah your assessment of cryptocurrency is pretty much spot on. The bubble is going to burst eventually though it's hard to say when. Steam just recently stopped taking cryptocurrency and for good reason. Basically the prices fluctuate so rapidly they can't accurately collect the proper amount. What's worse they said is the outrageous transactions fees. If I remember right I think they said at one point transactions fees were as high as $20 but are usually around $4-8. That suggests it's all a scam for the creators to get rich. A credit card has like a $0.20 transaction fee.

Yorumi

Nintendo Network ID: yorumi

ThanosReXXX

@Yorumi My points are fair, and they relate exactly to what @NEStalgia was asking/wondering about. All I did is supply him with the right information.

And yes, you can build a PC for roughly the same money, or slightly more, than an Xbox One X, but the console will still perform better on average, because all the parts are more in tune and the programming is done closer to the metal, so a console with the same specs as a certain spec PC should nearly always outperform that PC.

Those UHD media players for PC also aren't cheap, so that would also be an added cost if you wanted to add that to your rig.

And my point concerning multi-player stands: you're not going to reach that $800 price point that you mentioned, so that's complete BS. At most, you'd get to $700, but that's console and online play included for a whole 5 years, and what I also forgot is the 4 games free per month, 2 Xbox 360 titles and 2 Xbox One titles. Currently, I've downloaded 60 (Xbox One-only) games on the Xbox One, and most of them are full blown triple A titles, and about 10 - 15 of them are the Xbox's equivalent of Nintendo's eShop titles.

They may not be the newest games, obviously, but still: the total amount of those extra games is around $700 per year, as per Microsoft's own official statements. But let's take a lower average and say it is more something around $500 - $600. That's still a pretty good deal. So, factor in the cost of the subscription vs those benefits, and try and find a similar replacement for THAT on PC.

There isn't any: there's the odd Steam deal and the monthly Humble Bundles, but they aren't included with the system or the online subscription, so you'd have to pay extra for those.

Edited on by ThanosReXXX

'The console wars are like boobs. Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

Nintendo Network ID: ThanosReXX

NEStalgia

@Octane While I'm not at all a fan of banking cartels, that whole system doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense (to be fair neither does the standard financial system....all of it is imaginary "money" that exists only so long as people believe it exists.) I realize even the USD is a currency backed by nothing and exists entirely in pixie dust and unicorn dreams but in theory it at least represents the national GDP (har har). Bitcoins honestly sound like it represents itself only and was willed into being. That selling the service of transaction verification somehow produces deflationary expansion defies all reason. I was all for new currencies in concept....especially if it was actually backed by something new other than the foundations of the central banks......but this sounds like simple madness that people actually accept as payment. And I didn't think it was possible to get even more mad than fiat currency.

Though I do imagine it's quite shady on the inside.....there's not many reasons you'd need to crunch that many big numbers. Plus bitcoins are VERY often used as payment for anonymous services....

@Yorumi Yeah, that's the philosophy I'd want to adopt in PC. Plywood represents my OLD PC gaming self like a ghost haunting me from my past. I understand what he's saying TOO well...that's what's wrong with it

As for crypto....ahhhh, now we get to it.....they take payments in central bank fiat currency in exchange for their imaginary currency! So they get real money while they peddle fake money. It all makes sense now...

NEStalgia

Yorumi

@NEStalgia I'm with you in that I don't like the way current money is done, but crypto is just madness. It's reactionary in a weird way. The fixed amount is a reaction to money printing. The thing is even economists who don't particularly like the fed and stuff will tell you that you do eventually have to increase the money supply. With a fixed supply you do have a real concern that the wealthy could legitimately hoard the wealth, make loans nearly impossible and effectively enslave people. As much as people try to make us believe that's the way the current economy works it's not true.

Beyond that point, what's weird about it all to me is that we do have an alternative to the existing system. Gold and silver. You can buy gold and silver coins all day long, and the do exactly what crypto claims to do. It's better than crypto really because at least it still works even if electronics don't.

Yorumi

Nintendo Network ID: yorumi

ThanosReXXX

@NEStalgia It's definitely going off-topic here, but now that everybody's talking about it: you won't see me ever touching a single bitcoin, not even with a ten foot pole. A lot of them are used by criminals (there's a good reason why Bitcoin is also the go to currency on the Dark Web), people get locked out of accounts/codes and what not (as it so happens, there was a whole documentary about it on TV the other week) and you'd have to seriously invest to get something interesting out of it.

Nah, I'll just stick to my card and real money, none of that shady, unpredictable stuff for this old Titan...

'The console wars are like boobs. Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

Nintendo Network ID: ThanosReXX

PlywoodStick

@Yorumi Solid, huh?

I'm also trying to keep in mind that Nestea has "the curse."

Legend speaks of a horrible disaster that befell one who was chosen to bear an incomparable burden. A calamity so unspeakably tragic that it makes grown men and violins weep. A misfortune so great that it turns the greatest among us into straight jacket burritos wandering amongst a sea of pillows. Even to think of it makes me feel faint. Yes, this is how I know Nestea has mental fortitude rivaling the divine, but he has not come out of it unscathed. I'm the opposite, things come together for me with PC building intuitively, even though it may take time. I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I had to go through what Nestea did, lol

Well, GTX 1080 will last a while, but next year MCM (multi chip module) GPU's will become the beginning of a new standard, and this year Intel is teaming up with AMD for Vega-based iGPU's. Intel is kinda giving up on iGPU's, which is a huge win for AMD. Landscapes are changing, and to me that makes this a more exciting time than it has been for almost a decade! (You can probably tell I'm biased in favor of AMD at this point, but I liked my Core i5-750 and i7-870, lasted 7 years put together.)

Edited on by PlywoodStick

PlywoodStick

NEStalgia

@Yorumi Yeah....the trouble with the way they print money now isn't necessarily the deflationary nature of it, but their distribution of it is no longer one of introducing it to the market but as direct injections into the banks, or worse, the stock market. It's like a badly deformed reimagining of supply-side theory (speaking of Thatcher.) where all new assets are moved to the existing holders.....much like what the fixed supply of Bitcoin would do. Only worse because it deflates the holdings of everyone else. That's not how the idea was supposed to work.

Such irony we're down to talking about gold and silver as an alternative when that was supposed to be what the money represented to begin with. The fiat system never made much more sense than bitcoin from the start. Yet it's STILL less idiotic than currency representing nothing but computation power. If even that.

NEStalgia

NEStalgia

@PlywoodStick It's true....so true. I can build a $500 PC for just under $1900 by the time all the failures are sorted out!

"will become the beginning of a new standard"

But that's the thing. That's when it BEGINS. But it's not there yet. It's not refined yet. And the next year everyone's talking about how gen 1 wasn't a REAL version of it, it was still using parts from the old stuff! It no longer counts as the new thing! It's more like the old one with some other stuff from the current stuff.

Can't pull the wool over my eyes, no siree bobcat!

NEStalgia

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