@slapshot82 I agree on a lot of what you said in your last comment.

I hated bush but I hate how some people act like everything is ok now that obama is in office. The party conservative/liberal thing just gets people all caught up in taking sides yet ignoring real issues. Most people are happy saying one side is wrong and other is right when the truth is closer to the fact that both sides are wrong in many ways.

I used to like michael moore better in the past, sometimes I just wonder his actual political affiliation since he seems to side more with democrats. Also, he seems to try to force emotional impact in almost unethical ways just to prove his point. Not that I have a problem with him or his films I just look at both sides of everything and have a general skeptical nature. Still, his films are generally entertaining and stir up some healthy debate. Plus he made documentaries kinda cool again and stirred up some general interest in documentaries - at least for me.

While I agree with most of the things he says, I think some of is tactics are questionable. He's is very manipulative.

From a cinematographic viewpoint Moore is brilliant, though.

Michael Moore is the Johnny Knoxville (MTV's Jackass) of public political debate, and a case study in hypocrisy.

Carry on.

Johnny Knoxville f***ed my step-sister. No joke.

@Machu: get the flosswaffle out, are you serious? o_o!

Unfortunately I am. She used to work for Mr Stringfellow. I shall say no more. _{needless to say, it fills me with pride}

_{flosswaffles, lol}

@Machu....wow, that is impressive. Knoxville is hilarious in a extremely immature way, but got its hard not to watch and laugh.

@Vendetta.... I do think F 9-11 and Bowling for Columbine are both quite biased but this movie you can tell that the economic decline literally destroying his hometown has really hit home with him. You should just check it out and see for yourself.

@slaphot82 and jbrodack

Hey guys I don't think Obama is perfect. I have actually been upset how he has had a mandate for change and seems like is always trying to please the Republicans that are set on making his presidency a failure.

I think Obama has tried to mimic Lincoln when he should be acting more like FDR. Big business needs to be dramatically changed or we will be no different then we were during the Bush Jr. Years.

However, Obama has still been way better than Bush Jr. at this point of his presidency.

The Bush Jr. Administration not only didn't defend us on 9/11, but GWB also promoted General Richard Myers, the man who was in charge of NA air defense that day, even though he didn't get ONE shot fired in our defense despite all the anti-aircraft guns and defense missiles in DC and F16s located all across the country that have successfully intercepted stray airplanes a hundred times a year even prior to 9/11!

So I will take these first 11 months of Obama over Bush Jr’s first 11 months.

@TG64..... I dont think any president could have been ready for what happened to us on 9-11. Just like at Pearl Harbor we had become very confindent in ourselves and that nothing will ever happen on US soil. Placing blame will not change anything, do remember though afterwards how people in the aftermath how close we all came together afterwards, it was quite amazing to come home everydays in the many months after to see how people were changed and how the recoveries. Bad things happen sometimes, you have to learn from those experiences. People just always placing everying blamed on Bush aren't learning anything, they are getting so stuck into the past that they sometimes forget the matters at hand today. Its time to put the past in the past and start moving forward with the issues of today. You dont see Obama still saying Bush this Bush that anymore do you? Obama inspired people that they have a voice and this country was about the people in it. Not the 1% that how 95% of the countries currency.

Michael Moore's a nut. Simple as that.

Agreed.

@slapshot82

Are you kidding me?! Advanced radar systems used by the military and NORAD check our airspace 24 hours a day, 365 days a year! You mean tell me there was nothing we could've done?

The planes on 9/11 went hundreds of miles off course. How does the Pentagon get hit an hour after the whole world knew we were under attack? It would of taken 8 seconds for F-16s to reach the Pentagon. You don't promote the guy who did NOTHING on 9/11 to Secretary of the Joint Chiefs of Staff the following week.

We have the best air defense system in the world and there is even a paper trail to prove they anticipated such attacks.

Also, I think it's bizarre the President's own brother, Marvin Bush, has a security company, Securacom, that was in charge of security at both airports that had 4 hijacked planes and the World Trade Center Buildings on that very day! Stop making excuses about this guy.

Here's from the Wikipedia article on Marvin Bush:

"Marvin Bush was on the board of directors of Securacom[1] from 1993-2000.

Securacom provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. The company was backed by KuwAm, a Kuwaiti-American investment firm on whose board Marvin Bush also served."

TG, playing the blame game on 9/11 isn't the best way to go. Yes, the Bush administration sat on important intel without acting on it for too long, as you could argue the plane that struck the pentagon should have been stopped. As events showed though, the morning of 9/11 was one big clusterfuck of activity-organizations not working together, information being passed to the wrong people or too late, etc. Of course Bush (just by nature of being the president at the time) has to shoulder at least some of the blame, but I can give you plenty of more productive routes to go down on than playing the what-if game about 9/11.

After all, look at Pearl Harbor; we had concrete intel (and even more direct warnings) that an attack on the area was imminent but did nothing about it. Government f*ckups are nothing new.

@ The Fox

At least, we fired some shots back at Pearl Harbor!

Also, an independent investigation was launched within days of Pearl Harbor, but never has there been an independent investigation for 9/11 and that's just sickening!

Bush Jr.'s response to Hurricane Katrina was equally worthless. Stop making excuses for him. Educate yourself on what a whitewash they did with 9/11.

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@TG64..... Kinda clarify up some here. I wasn't taking up for Bush and his administration.... but could you imagine the outrage if we would have blown up one of the planes. They were hijacked there wasn't anything that could be done and nobody knew where they were headed. As for the one that hit the Pentagon.... all the planes were being rerouted at by then so the everything was was a mess. It was a bad bad situation that nobody was prepared or trained for. Promoting the guy was and still is wrong, I have no dissagreement with you there, at all. Crazy thing is is that same air defense system that your talking about... Obama is completely against. That is also crazy. Politics are like a two sided coin my friend.

@TG
All you have to do is follow my past posts to discover my feelings on W.
I'm not making excuses for anyone, and the days following 9/11 were botched as well. However, unlike most political discussions I don't think this one is that productive. Feelings run deep, and it's going to end up getting the thread locked.

@The Fox

You know you are one of my favorites at NL. You always make me laugh and think.

I know emotions run deep about this topic, but I don't see that there is anything un-patrotic about raising questions. Hopefully, someday there will be a new investigation into 9/11. The victims and victims' families over whelming support this as well.

Yay! I'm one of someone's favorites!

I always like having political discussions here with you, Vendetta and everyone else (they add some needed spice!), but it's just that I'd hate to see another one get locked. There is nothing unpatriotic at all about questioning the government , and you and I share quite a few opinions but with 9/11 the wounds still run deep for some. It's not that it shouldn't be discussed but maybe not here, you know what I mean?

Politics...
Not a subject I particularly like...
We think about propaganda as something that happens in "communist" countries or something else far-fetched, but politics is propaganda. I especially enjoyed the whole anti-communist thing everyone (especially the US) had going. Makes me laugh. Most people don't even know what communism is and yet anyone who believed it could (and would) work was as good as a "terrorist".
Ha!
...I'm just going to stop as I have little to contribute about Moore. I have not seen any of his films, but his capitalism one has peaked my interest. Capitalism is certainly not the greatest as it promotes a "survival of the fittest" that is about as subtle as a polar bear on ice skates...in the middle of a Metallica concert. But I'm not educated on it enough to really give you my $0.02.

I don't see why controversial threads always end up getting locked.

@slapshot as a fan of Moore I'm surprised you're not harder on Bush for 9/11 especially considering Moore made practically a whole movie on the topic.