You were perfectly in control of your actions when you chose to let the Super Guide beat the bosses in Donkey Kong Country Returns for you, which—if I'm recalling correctly—only shows up as an option after losing about 15 lives. Sorry, but this alone invalidates your argument. If you felt so "insulted" that the option was being given to you, wouldn't that feeling just increase by taking it? I know seeing that option being offered to me (in bonus temples, mostly) only made me try harder to best the level, not hang my head in defeat and let the game take over for me...
As others have already said, those tutorials and free-pass buttons, some of which can be turned off, are put in place to make games more appealing to people that are new to gaming (more copies sold= more money, duh). Clearly you're not a newbie, so don't take the newbie way out when offered the choice...
"Don't make enemies, they'll stab your heart; don't make friends, they'll stab your back. Including me, including you, all men are trash. Don't love; don't be loved. Have nothing to do with other; live in isolation."
@ChocoGoldfish: I wouldn't say that Dark Souls was actually easy in any standards, even though i played Demon's Souls through before it. Dark Souls was just a lot better designed and realised game, with it's "Metroidesque" overworld. But saying that it's easy? I'm pretty sure that even you died pretty many times when playing it. I also don't understand how this game had hand holding compared to almost anything else in the market now Edit: The only thing that comes to mind is the other player's notes, which were not annoying at all.
The stupid bonfires were handholding. Made it far too safe. Venture out, explore a little, if it gets too hot, retreat to an easy rest. That's handholding. It might not be explicit, but it was a deliberate measure to make the game more accessible to the player. The developers even said as much.
Compare to King's Field IV which not only hides the save points, but doesn't provide any respite at those save points. If you're -bleeped- and you luck on a save point, you're still -bleeped-, it's just that the game is now saved there. To this day King's Field IV remains the only game quite literally capable of killing the player one second after they start playing.
Did I die in Dark Souls? Sure. I died lots. Dying is the whole point of the game. It's a wordless, subtle tutorial. Just like Super Mario Brothers has a in-game tutorial by making the first growth mushroom almost impossible to avoid, or Portal 2 has in-game tutorials without telling you you're being tutorialed. Dying in Dark Souls is how you learn to play the game. Not once when I was playing Dark Souls did I sit back and say to myself "I'm never going to get further than this," though, and therein it was an easier game than King's Field IV which I only managed to figure out how to finish after starting it around 20 times.
So, once again, what is a difficult game that offers the player no assistance to you is a cakewalk that holds player's hands from start to finish to me. Difficulty, and "hand holding" is no more than a matter of perspective. It's not a problem with the games industry.
^ Just a matter of perspective? I have a bad feeling that if i continue from this, we end up in never ending philosophic conversation about subjectivity and objectivity. So i'll just leave it here.
In my frustration i let the super guide beat almost all the bosses and never felt any real thrill.
The game didn't choose to beat the bosses for you. You chose that option.
Don't want to be hand held. Don't use what the game provides for other players.
Well. DKCR was just one example, and maybe not the best possible... even though i still think that it would be better if there were no super guide at all. The temptation to use it is just too much in certain cases. My main concern however is games like Castlevania: LOS, which basically walks you through it. I'm about 8 hours in the game and it still feels like a tutorial.
Except not everyone is a seasoned gamer that has no difficulty with games at all. The super guide was never meant to be used by everyone anyway. Don't like it? Don't use it!
Simple as that.
Skyward Sword needed tutorials because it is A LOT more complicated than the original Legend of Zelda, which pretty much only involved moving and pushing 2-3 buttons.
Current games: Everything on Switch
Switch Friend Code: SW-5075-7879-0008 | My Nintendo: LzWinky | Nintendo Network ID: LzWinky
I have a feeling King's Field IV is a horrible video game defended by the same people who actually liked I Wanna Be The Trial And Error.
oh and handholding I can kinda understand in early parts of the game, but considering the increasing refusal to stop the gameplay in certain modern day games (see: games where you play through the intro credits, cutscene like scenes where you actually control the character in some way (Call of Duty, Half Life 2 etc.), on screen tutorials that don't stop the gameplay (DKCR example)) it makes the games that stop the gameplay ALL THE TIME all the more annoying. "MEGAMAN MEGAMAN" and all that.
The tutorial overload in Zelda games drive me nuts when it's about something that was the same in the last game. And so does the simplicity of the first 8 or so levels in recent Mario games. However, it's nice that some Nintendo games are helping people out after losing a bunch of lives (Mario 3D Land and DKCR). I personally don't take the option, but I have some friends who are horrible at platformers and they'd probably want to move ahead. lol It's optional and generous.
I kinda miss testing Einstein's definition of insanity in retro games.
I like having my hand held. I like to be told everything is going to be ok when things get rough. When I'm lost I like to have a light that shows me the way. I love to be held, fed and cradled when things get hard. Don't judge me .
Lately Nintendo games in general do a lot of handholding, I guess they're afraid of turning off newcomers but I just hate the fact that it affects those of us who actually have the IQ to figure things on our own. I don't mind handholding if it's a game with a REALLY complex learning curve like the battle system in Resonance of Fate which has optional tutorials which you can do by going to the colliseum, but when it's something so simple like in Kid Icarus it can bother me at times. I feel like Nintendo games are so fun but they tend to be on the easy side and I guess they do this to attract newcomers, it's just not fair that it screws us over in the process.
The cat's the only cat who knows where it's at.
NNID: Muffin-Gun
Because Water Temple, that's why But yeah, all these tutorials should be optional. I mean I don't mind 'em since I'm the wimpiest gamer you'll ever find but hey other people do. Mind them. That is.
Lately Nintendo games in general do a lot of handholding, I guess they're afraid of turning off newcomers but I just hate the fact that it affects those of us who actually have the IQ to figure things on our own. I don't mind handholding if it's a game with a REALLY complex learning curve like the battle system in Resonance of Fate which has optional tutorials which you can do by going to the colliseum, but when it's something so simple like in Kid Icarus it can bother me at times. I feel like Nintendo games are so fun but they tend to be on the easy side and I guess they do this to attract newcomers, it's just not fair that it screws us over in the process.
You're right, because we are the original audience. Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus were all originally tough as nails HC games where you had to figure out things on your own. They are still great games, but if they dumb 'em down any more, i've had it with these series.
Except not everyone is a seasoned gamer that has no difficulty with games at all. The super guide was never meant to be used by everyone anyway. Don't like it? Don't use it!
Simple as that.
Pretty sure Aviator sort of already said that. About a page back.
You're right, because we are the original audience. Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus were all originally tough as nails HC games where you had to figure out things on your own. They are still great games, but if they dumb 'em down any more, i've had it with these series.
When a game "holds your hand", it's easy and defeats the purpose of the game. But when they offer you a little help via a tutorial, that's not dumbing it down, that's called branching its overall audience.
Just for you. "I'm just a musical prostitute, my dear." - Freddie Mercury
You're right, because we are the original audience. Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus were all originally tough as nails HC games where you had to figure out things on your own. They are still great games, but if they dumb 'em down any more, i've had it with these series.
I can understand this - I know if I have to sit through another tutorial telling me how to jump or how to move the accursed analogue sticks, I'm going to scream - but I can assure you Nintendo's making much more money appealing to the newcomers than they would trying to capture the imagination of 30 year old family men, which is what I'm pretty sure the majority of what their original audience has become. Not saying you have to like it, but it is the fact of the matter here. Perhaps moving on would be the best thing.
^ I haven't got anything against tutorials, in general. But if a whole game feels like an over- stretched tutorial, somethings wrong.
When was the last time Nintendo put out something like this, though?
Nintendo has used a lot of tutorials since the days of N64, but i think that the situation has gone worse. Skyward Sword is a good example of this, Fi is just blabbering too much.
you realize you can edit your comments, right Faron?
BEST THREAD EVER future of NL >:3
[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
Forums
Topic: Hand Holding
Posts 21 to 40 of 42
This topic has been archived, no further posts can be added.