Topic: Hand Holding

I have just spend a lot of time with two very different games, Skyward Sword and Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, and even though they were both mostly enjoyable experiences, there was one thing that made me want to stop playing and go back to Dark Souls, or the original Legend of Zelda. There is simply too much tutorials and hand holding in these games. Everyone in here already knows about FI and treasure hunting annoyances in SS, so i'm just gonna concentrate on Castlevania.
My gripe is that the game constantly "talks" to you, like you were a child. "You can't jump from here yet", "You are not powerful enough to move this block, come back later", "Look, there's a ledge, climb it."; all the while when the ledges, movable blocks and stuff are flashing. Everything you can use, flashes all the time, so just follow the flashing and you can never get lost. There are puzzles, but behold: in the inventory screen there is a "solve the puzzle automatically"- option. A real life Win button for chrissakes! The game is rated M, so basically my question is this: Why do the developers think that adults are so dim witted that they can't figure out anything by themselves? I don't find playing a game like this enjoyable, outside from combat. It just makes me feel like the developers are insulting my intelligence.
This modern "Castlevania" is not the only example of annoyingly excessive hand holding. If you've got some other game in mind what does this, please feel free to rant. I hate this kind of crap and want the industry to return to older times, when the player actually felt like he's in control of his actions. Dark Souls is a prime example of the direction where we should go.

That sounds a bit extreme indeed, but I want to point out that any game could be someone's first game ever or at least in that particular genre. Even if something is obvious to you it can bee new and confusing to them.

And nobody's forcing you to use that "solve the puzzle automatically" button, it's for those who want to skip right to the action. That's why most games have the option to skip cut-scenes. More options are never a bad thing.

I find it extremely annoying. Allow players to skip tutorials. Done.

Well, one of the first game i ever played was Castlevania 2 to the NES. If you have heard about the game, you know how absolutely confusing it can be. It's got no hand holding except vague clues from townspeople, which in some cases doesn't even make sense. This, and the original Zelda were one of the first games i played through when i was about 8 years old. Still, beating these games was absolutely satisfying, because there were no helpers; i actually felt like i had achieved something great and using only my skills and wits. If there would have been "solve the puzzle" option in that time, and hand holding everywhere, it would have probably felt the same as it does today: nothing. Even the optionality of these things takes away from the experience, which i sadly noticed in Donkey Kong Country Returns. In my frustration i let the super guide beat almost all the bosses and never felt any real thrill.

thing is, if your gonna play the game, there should be some element of thought process to figure stuff out for yourself, and if you get stuck, there`s always the manuals the get supplied with the game. even then if you are well and truely stuck, there`s always the tutorials online if you look for them.
point is, i agree with the OP that when the devs have programed in pop ups showing you how to do everything ingame as your playing it is frustrating. although it`s not to bad if it`s just showing what buttons do what at the beggining of the game, and then it leaves you to carry on.
tbh, a few culprits i can think of include super mario 3D land, new super mario bros wii, and donkey kong returns.

The game didn't choose to beat the bosses for you. You chose that option.

Don't want to be hand held. Don't use what the game provides for other players.

Well. DKCR was just one example, and maybe not the best possible... even though i still think that it would be better if there were no super guide at all. The temptation to use it is just too much in certain cases. My main concern however is games like Castlevania: LOS, which basically walks you through it. I'm about 8 hours in the game and it still feels like a tutorial.

@Faron if you have a ds try Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light. If you don't know, its an new old school non-tutorial, tough as nails RPG. Best of all, no hand-holding.

You say 'these tutorials are for players new to the genre' and whatever. But how many games from the 80's gave you a tutorial. It wasnt a problem then. The point of games like tLoZ and metroid is to find out what to do and discover how to do new things yourself. In alot of newer games you just dont get that same satisfaction anymore when you recover the first treasure in the new zelda games or beat the first boss in a modern metroid game. Discovering things at your own pace is what made alot of retro nes/snes games fun. I am in no way 'bashing' modern video games. It just doesnt feel as good inside when you defeat a boss for example, because you've just been told how to do it. Of course this is all IMO.

@MrArcade: And how many games did you set aside as a child because you just couldn't get through them? We look at things through rose-tinted glasses and think it was all good, but i distinctly remember being quite disappointed with more than a few games in my now long-gone NES library because I had no idea how to play them, the manual wasn't any help at all and there was no explanation in-game to help me figure it out. I would have to ask my parents for help, and sometimes we even bought guides (i remember when my mom picked up SMB3 she also bought the Nintendo Power issue that was on sale at the same time with a complete picture-based walkthrough; i really wish we hadn't destroyed that over the years, haha). When I was a little kid, there are a few games where I would have loved to have had more directional help, something to point me where the hell to go next (TMNT, i'm looking squarely at you, lol).

@Faron: i get what you're talking about with Skyward Sword (i haven't played it myself, you can't turn the more extreme hints off?), but this is nothing new — Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess talked to you quite a bit as well, and OoT3D had even more hints for you in the form of that stone by your house. They're trying to make these games more accessible to young'uns, and that's fine by me because in the few games that you can't turn them off, i don't have to pay attention. I have the willpower to not succumb to the allure of the Super Guide. if you had it beat a boss or two for you, that's your own fault, not the game's — you say you're an adult? Be one, then, and own your choices.

^ If you haven't even played SS, you shouldn't comment it. It's a lot worse than OOT or even TP. In OOT, i think there was a great balance between tutorials and having to think things for yourself. And children aren't as stupid as these developers may think. Besides, many of these hand holding games are actually M- rated.

@Faron: (a) i've seen some video playthrough of what you're talking about, and (b) pretty sure i didn't actually comment on it in depth, because i know i can't ('s why i asked if you could turn it off or not). Again, it's nothing new — one man's 'perfect balance' is another man's 'OMG HANDHOLDING'.

If you don't want to play games that do this (or don't let you turn off the 'help'), do your homework. For example, Xenoblade allows you to turn off the in-game guide stuff if you want and hides the in-depth tutorials in a menu. Cluigi recommended 4HoL, that's an excellent game suggestion if you want some old-school turn-you-loose-in-the-world action. I don't recall a lot of tutorial action in Radiant Historia beyond what was necessary to battle and time-travel. There are games out there that don't give the kind of in-depth help you clearly don't crave, but expecting Nintendo to stop making their first-party titles as accessible as possible to little kids is something that probably isn't going to happen. It's a trend that's been too many years in the making.

As for Konami, the only thing I can think of to explain the modern Castlevania you played was that during game testing, problems arose. Why else would they bother putting in so many explanations? Castlevania is pretty notorious for turning you loose with little direction, IMO, so if they changed the game system to be more accessible it must have been due to feedback. Perhaps they'll go a more moderate route in the next one.

@theblackdragon: I know. Maybe i'm just disappointed that my own favorite series, like Zelda, just aren't as challenging anymore as they were in my childhood. After playing through Dark Souls i realised how utterly captivating a game can be with almost no hand holding, and it reminded me of past NES games, like Metroid.

You're right. There is definately a problem of this in games nowadays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM - Contains harsh language, but is a great video illustrating the point you're making. For all I know you've already seen this.

Lost me there. Dark Souls is a cakewalk compared to its predecessors (Demon's Souls and the King's Field games). It does plenty of its own brand of "hand holding"

Therein lies the problem with your argument. One person's utterly hardcore game is another persons dumbed down experience, and one person's dumbed down experience is another person's frustration-free game.

In conclusion: Play the games you want to play. There will always be games out there that you find "hardcore" and others that are baby-simple. There's nothing wrong with the industry. It's just that your perspective has changed.

And yes, Dark Souls is easy. Go play King's Field IV and you'll realise what I'm talking about.

@ChocoGoldfish: I wouldn't say that Dark Souls was actually easy in any standards, even though i played Demon's Souls through before it. Dark Souls was just a lot better designed and realised game, with it's "Metroidesque" overworld. But saying that it's easy? I'm pretty sure that even you died pretty many times when playing it. I also don't understand how this game had hand holding compared to almost anything else in the market now Edit: The only thing that comes to mind is the other player's notes, which were not annoying at all.

@Geonjaha: That was a great video and exactly what i mean.

@theblackdragon im only 17 and didnt start playing retro games till i was about 13 because i grew up with n64 and gamecube. So in that respect, my comment may have been somewhat biased, but yes i can see where you are coming from. I am different because i didnt experience that frustration at an early age and do not get frustrated with nes games (except for zelda 2). But again thats because i wasnt like 5 when i started playing them. Therefore playing them for the first time would have been easier for me. Still i think alot of games today are too OTT with tutorials. But thats just my opinion. I respect others opinions im just explaining how i experienced the nes for the first time differently to those who grew up with it. Anyway this typing is giving me wrist-ache. Im doing it on my 3ds..

Because these days parents let their children play adult games.

People manage life......life didnt come with instructions.......
(jks)

And here I was thinking this was going to be a dating advice thread...

I'm somewhat in agreement for my own selfish reasons. I grew up playing PC games, and - at least in that era - they rarely became frustrating due to lack of knowledge about what to do. If you read the manual, you could jump straight in and play, no worries.

It's here to stay, but I dislike mandatory tutorials in games these days. Especially the ones where it looks like you'll get to solve a puzzle and then a character/text box pops up and walks you through it. I prefer all that stuff to remain in the manual, which you read before you play the game. That way I become more immersed in the game more quickly, as I don't have big pictures of buttons popping up all over my screen. It's not so much the difficulty but the breaking of immersion that bothers me.

I realise that, these days, I'm probably in the minority regarding manuals. Most people would prefer to jump straight into their new game with as little delay as possible, and in-game tutorials streamline that process. Some devs are getting clever with tutorials (making them blend in to the game proper quite well, so you're not constantly reminded that THIS IS A TUTORIAL!) which is great to see.

In addition, the broadening audience of video games necessitates this sort of thing. People who are relatively new to video games might look at a certain mechanic and be very puzzled, whereas someone who has a lot of experience with 'game logic' (stuff like if I break this crate I know some health will probably fall out) would have no problems with it. I guess if in-game tutorials are the price to pay for making video games a more mainstream business, then that's OK.