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Topic: Government run Health care! yes or no?

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gameking23

201. Posted:

Zenman wrote:

gameking23 wrote:

Zenman wrote:

gameking23 wrote:

The+Fox wrote:

gameking23 wrote:

[

Oh, PS there will be death boards, and have you even gone over the bill or do just belive what people tell you.

"..or do I just believe what people tell me"
Pot, meet kettle. There are NO examples of anything resembling a death board/panel/etc. ever even being mention through creative euphemisms. I'd love to hear your source on this but fear the answer would come back Sarah Palin.

Oh do not worry it is not from Sarah, I have heard it from many places like Fox news. Plus rationing of health care will cause some people to die so is that not like having a death board. As I have asked b4 have read threw the bill?

fox news?! really!? fox news?! that's not the best news source

It is a good source of news if you are looking for a place that does not have all one sided stories.

fox news is SO one sided!

As if NBC, ABC, CNN, and MSNBC told the whole story. :P Have you even seen Fox or do you belive everything you are told.

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The_Fox

202. Posted:

gameking23 wrote:

The+Fox wrote:

gameking23 wrote:

[

Oh, PS there will be death boards, and have you even gone over the bill or do just belive what people tell you.

"..or do I just believe what people tell me"
Pot, meet kettle. There are NO examples of anything resembling a death board/panel/etc. ever even being mention through creative euphemisms. I'd love to hear your source on this but fear the answer would come back Sarah Palin.

Oh do not worry it is not from Sarah, I have heard it from many places like Fox news. Plus rationing of health care will cause some people to die so is that not like having a death board. As I have asked b4 have read threw the bill?

"I have heard it from many places like Fox News"
My god. We hit the reason as to why you're convinced in death panels. Getting your news from Fox News is like listening to the village idiot. He never knows what he's talking about but he sure likes to go on.

And yes, I have read a good chunk of the bill. There is not rationing of health care mentioned that isn't exactly what insurance companies do.
I've said it before, but the upcoming health care bill isn't what I'm referring to directly. I think it should go further.

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

-President John Adams

Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

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Zenman

203. Posted:

that does not excuse waiting to send in anything.

  • @ the fox
    YES!
    EDIT#3 yay!
    @ gameking*
    i would much rather believe the fact than fox news is baised cause the other reality is that every other news source on the planet has a democratic bias

Edited on by Zenman

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warioswoods

204. Posted:

My enormous post was just lost within the flurry of activity it seems, but I do have one more remark, completely non-serious this time: The Fox, I just now realized that your fox avatar is not actually sticking his tongue out, as I'd long believed, but that it is instead his neck I was looking at. Also, some solid arguments by you in this thread, Fox!

Twitter is a good place to throw your nonsense.
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Zenman

205. Posted:

@ warios woods agreed, the fox is really smart at this.

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The_Fox

206. Posted:

@Wariowoods and Zenman
Thank you for the kind words! It's nice to see a few more people that share my opinions. And Wariowoods, long post or not I read over your post, and you made some great points regarding the situation in a well thought out and intelligent way.

And regarding the avatar, the low cut shirt does make it look weird in such a small picture, doesn't it? :)

I do also want to let those I've argued with (Gameking and I especially have been bouncing it back and forth) know I have enjoyed this. I don't think less of you in any way just because we don't agree and I hope I don't chase you away from an important discussion.

Edited on by The_Fox

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

-President John Adams

Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

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Knux

207. Posted:

The+Fox wrote:

SuperSonic1990 wrote:

Why do people think the government will help healthcare by controlling it? If the government controls healthcare, it will make everyones' lives misreable.

Oh? Enlighten me.

You want the government controlling healthcare!? If the government controls healthcare, people who are not able to be under the universal healthcare program are screwed. People who have good indenpent healthcare programs will be forced to switch over, causing grief. Universal healthcare is not going to solve the enconomy, it will just make things worse. Besides, this universal healthcare plan was being talked about long before the enconomy went sour. It was suggested by Hillary Clinton back during the 1990s.

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Zenman

208. Posted:

@ supersonic
as i have stated to others on this thread, it is a choice, no one is forcing you to have the plan. it is merely there for people to have if they lack insurance or cannot pay for it.

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The_Fox

209. Posted:

SuperSonic1990 wrote:

The+Fox wrote:

SuperSonic1990 wrote:

Why do people think the government will help healthcare by controlling it? If the government controls healthcare, it will make everyones' lives misreable.

Oh? Enlighten me.

You want the government controlling healthcare!? If the government controls healthcare, people who are not able to be under the universal healthcare program are screwed. People who have good indenpent healthcare programs will be forced to switch over, causing grief. Universal healthcare is not going to solve the enconomy, it will just make things worse. Besides, this universal healthcare plan was being talked about long before the enconomy went sour. It was suggested by Hillary Clinton back during the 1990s.

"People will be forced to switch over causing grief"
Untrue, and this is the point you lead with? 1 in 4 live without any health insurance and you want to claim that they shouldn't be able get any because it would require tweaking the private sector. Nice.
As for the Clinton thing, what exactly does that have to do with anything? Universal health care has been put forth at various times for at least 50 years.

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

-President John Adams

Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

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Vendetta

210. Posted:

Man, I step out for dinner and drinks and miss all this heat here?
I've read every page and have yet to hear anyone factually dismiss any of the points or suggestions I've made.

I'm too tired and foggy to repost them all. If you're really interested, just breeze through the pages and look for my avatar.

Respect... mostly.
-V

Edited on by Vendetta

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Zenman

211. Posted:

@ vendetta
yeah, two days and now it is 10+ pages long

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The_Fox

212. Posted:

Vendetta wrote:

Not wanting to overpay for healthcare, mine or others', is not "cold" or "heartless." it's SMART. And NOTHING in the proposal reduces the cost of healthcare. To the contrary, the proposal significantly increases the per-capita cost.

Better healthcare, cheaper healthcare, and more readily available healthcare will ONLY be provided by private industry. The market offers exactly ZERO examples where healthy competition increased pricing and reduced quality.

The only thing the US government should do is get out of the way of interstate insurance sales, and crack down on an overly litigious malpractice system being used as a lottery ticket by scumbags trying to get over.

No worries, V-man, I dug up one of your posts to look at.

You claim that only the private industry will be able to provide better and cheaper health care. But they won't. By being a for profit company in this business their goal is never to truly provide the best care. The bare minimum and not a dime more, if you will. The poor and sick are a business risk that they won't touch. Gotta add in that co-pay as well. The return comes back in the negative, so how would that help them? Malpractice lawsuits are out of hand (even if they are still incredibly important), but getting rid of the worst isn't a magic tonic. The industry was sick long before that was a factor.

Edited on by The_Fox

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

-President John Adams

Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

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The_Fox

213. Posted:

Vendetta wrote:

@MERG: "Private industry is the cause of more expensive and worse healthcare." Why, because you say so? Please provide one example of private industry increasing costs and decreasing quality in ANY market. Let me save you the trouble: you can't.

The system needs improving, I agree. Please see my earlier posts for my suggestions on where to begin.

Regarding the number of uninsured, let's do the math, shall we? Everybody now...
~300M in the US
~250M with health insurance coverage
~50M uninsured

Of those ~50M...
~20M illegal aliens
~30M uninsured

Of those ~30M, let's assume 0.00% elective non-coverage, so that every one of those 30M want health care but can't afford it. That's 1 in 10. So........what, are we to overhaul the entire system at the cost of hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars for 10% of the population? Please. Wake the hell up.

I'm all for exception handling. Raise a bit more tax (if that's even necessary) to cover the outliers and special cases. Solve the actual probem. Don't make a crisis where there isn't one, then try and recreate the whole system using that crisis as an excuse.

And one more so you don't think I wanted to just look at one.
With your claim of 250,000,000 being insured, how many do you think have serviceable coverage? How many get their coverage through the job and are scewed if they get downsized? How many are stuck in dead end jobs because their insurance is tied to the job?

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

-President John Adams

Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

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Bankai

214. Posted:

Vendetta wrote:

Man, I step out for dinner and drinks and miss all this heat here?
I've read every page and have yet to hear anyone factually dismiss any of the points or suggestions I've made.

I'm too tired and foggy to repost them all. If you're really interested, just breeze through the pages and look for my avatar.

Respect... mostly.
-V

It's funny. I'm on a reasonable, but low wage in a country that has public health care - demographics would put me in the middle class, in terms of personal wealth. Not only is my health good - and I have used the healthcare system before, but I'm not dying of starvation, and indeed I have luxuries in my life. My standard of living is much higher than an equivilently-waged American thanks to the welfare system.

But then, Americans don't realise the rest of the world laughs at its joke of a welfare system.

Edited on by Bankai

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Vendetta

215. Posted:

Ciao Fox. The private industry competes on quality and price. They only ever increase the quality and/or lower the price to beat out other vendors. Airlines, PCs, electronics, automobiles, you name it. Healthcare insurance is no different. Being a profit-driven company is what keeps costs DOWN in a competitive market. If the US Government steps in the game, competition goes out the window. Private sector will compete with the government the way a cow competes with a butcher. Anyone who believes otherwise is deluded. Lower the costs to helathcare providers by taking them out of the crosshairs of ambulance-chasing shysters, and the costs they pass on to the insurance companies to cover the patients will be reduced also.

I am all for exception handling, whether by allocated taxes or medical industry windfall taxes or other means, the roughly 1 in 10 people (very agressive estimate) who don't have health care insurance and can't legitimately afford it - keeping in mind this number will be even less when costs are reduced.

Edited on by Vendetta

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Zenman

216. Posted:

@ vendetta
obama made this argument and i think it fits...
what about UPS and Fed-Ex Vs the Postal Service? by that logic there would be no UPS or Fed-Ex because the Postal Service is government run

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Bankai

217. Posted:

Vendetta wrote:

Ciao Fox. The private industry competes on quality and price. They only ever increase the quality and/or lower the price to beat out other vendors. Airlines, PCs, electronics, automobiles, you name it. Healthcare insurance is no different. Being a profit-driven company is what keeps costs DOWN in a competitive market. If the US Government steps in the game, competition goes out the window. Private sector will compete with the government the way a cow competes with a butcher. Anyone who believes otherwise is deluded. Lower the costs to helathcare providers by taking them out of the crosshairs of ambulance-chasing shysters, and the costs they pass on to the insurance companies to cover the patients will be reduced also.

I am all for exception handling, whether by allocated taxes or medical industry windfall taxes or other means, the roughly 1 in 10 people (very agressive estimate) who don't have health care insurance and can't legitimately afford it - keeping in mind this number will be even less when costs are reduced.

Ok, I'll admit that I haven't read the document - but people here keep suggesting that public and private health care are mutually exclusive - is that the plan of the Obama Government? To abolish and outlaw private health care? Really?

It's a beautiful system when you have a base line, public access, government funded health care for the majority. And then private health care which gets to compete on costs and all that for those with a bit more money to spare.

Digitally Downloaded - best darned game site on the web ;-)

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brooks83

218. Posted:

Zenman wrote:

@ vendetta
obama made this argument and i think it fits...
what about UPS and Fed-Ex Vs the Postal Service? by that logic there would be no UPS or Fed-Ex because the Postal Service is government run

He also said that it's the post office that's always having problems. That doesn't give me much confidence that the government could effectively run health care.

brooks83

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Vendetta

219. Posted:

The+Fox wrote:

Vendetta wrote:

@MERG: "Private industry is the cause of more expensive and worse healthcare." Why, because you say so? Please provide one example of private industry increasing costs and decreasing quality in ANY market. Let me save you the trouble: you can't.

The system needs improving, I agree. Please see my earlier posts for my suggestions on where to begin.

Regarding the number of uninsured, let's do the math, shall we? Everybody now...
~300M in the US
~250M with health insurance coverage
~50M uninsured

Of those ~50M...
~20M illegal aliens
~30M uninsured

Of those ~30M, let's assume 0.00% elective non-coverage, so that every one of those 30M want health care but can't afford it. That's 1 in 10. So........what, are we to overhaul the entire system at the cost of hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars for 10% of the population? Please. Wake the hell up.

I'm all for exception handling. Raise a bit more tax (if that's even necessary) to cover the outliers and special cases. Solve the actual probem. Don't make a crisis where there isn't one, then try and recreate the whole system using that crisis as an excuse.

And one more so you don't think I wanted to just look at one.
With your claim of 250,000,000 being insured, how many do you think have serviceable coverage? How many get their coverage through the job and are scewed if they get downsized? How many are stuck in dead end jobs because their insurance is tied to the job?

Fox, the 250M is not "my" claim, as you seek to represent it. Good tactic, but not accurate. That is the figure being used by the authorities on both sides of the argument. And being "stuck" in a dead-end job that puts food on the table and insures your family against medical costs is not really that dead-end, nor one you should feel stuck in. Surely any upgrade would offer comparable benefits?

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The Conduit: 2622 0458 3119· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Water Warfare: 4726 5832 1608· · · · · · · Onslaught: 0388 6842 8268

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brooks83

220. Posted:

WaltzElf wrote:

Vendetta wrote:

Ciao Fox. The private industry competes on quality and price. They only ever increase the quality and/or lower the price to beat out other vendors. Airlines, PCs, electronics, automobiles, you name it. Healthcare insurance is no different. Being a profit-driven company is what keeps costs DOWN in a competitive market. If the US Government steps in the game, competition goes out the window. Private sector will compete with the government the way a cow competes with a butcher. Anyone who believes otherwise is deluded. Lower the costs to helathcare providers by taking them out of the crosshairs of ambulance-chasing shysters, and the costs they pass on to the insurance companies to cover the patients will be reduced also.

I am all for exception handling, whether by allocated taxes or medical industry windfall taxes or other means, the roughly 1 in 10 people (very agressive estimate) who don't have health care insurance and can't legitimately afford it - keeping in mind this number will be even less when costs are reduced.

Ok, I'll admit that I haven't read the document - but people here keep suggesting that public and private health care are mutually exclusive - is that the plan of the Obama Government? To abolish and outlaw private health care? Really?

It's a beautiful system when you have a base line, public access, government funded health care for the majority. And then private health care which gets to compete on costs and all that for those with a bit more money to spare.

It's all a sham. Obama is making it to look like we have a choice and that we can still get private insurance if we choose. But Obama said in HIS OWN WORDS that it will take between 10-20 years to eliminate the private insurance companies and have a single payer system (universal healthcare). By setting up the public option, it will eventually drive away private insurance companies.

brooks83

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