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Topic: Coronavirus outbreak

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gcunit

WaffleKnight wrote:

@gcunit
1. More people get sick than the hospitals can handle. Potential societal collapse due to inefficient healthcare and limited resources. Death rate will probably skyrocket.

But wouldn't healthcare systems adapt to the situation by prioritising other cases? When emergency services turn up to a big incident, they don't just down tools because they can't save everybody, they triage.

I'm yet to hear of an otherwise healthy person becoming a victim (beyond the mild illness) of this. Society doesn't have to collapse just because vulnerable people start getting hit harder. That would be ****ing nonsensical.

Edit: @Octane has just demonstrated my point. Worst cases are getting turned away from hospitals - that is a sensible approach, and it's happening. It's not devaluing people, it's not dehumanising people, it's just prioritising.

Edited on by gcunit

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1UP_MARIO

@ThanosReXXX video not to be taken too serious. 😀
It’s a serious disease and we should all just take precaution although where I work someone’s been stealing all the toilet rolls and hand washes like that’s gonna save them.

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ThanosReXXX

@1UP_MARIO I got that, but even as someone who absolutely LOVES comedy, I feel that when you're still smack-dab in the middle of an epidemic, that people are still dying from, it is just a little too soon to start making jokes, regardless of any harmless intent. But that's just my personal opinion on the matter, so you should not take it personally, as it wasn't intended as such. More like a general sentiment.

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ThanosReXXX

@gcunit That sensible approach of yours sounds like an absolute horror scenario to me: my father is 76, and both a diabetic and a Parkinson's patient, so if the virus would infect him, he could potentially get VERY sick, and I'd like to think that any sane health care institution would NOT refuse to take him in. I definitely know I would raise hell, and then some, if that would happen...

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Heavyarms55

I'm just curious for all the people still saying it's not a serious problem - how many people have to get sick and what % of them have to die to change your mind?

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Vee_Flames

Heavyarms55 wrote:

I'm just curious for all the people still saying it's not a serious problem - how many people have to get sick and what % of them have to die to change your mind?

Maybe when it's as serious, in terms of sheer numbers, as, say, the common flu, or a death sentence like the ebolavirus, or life-changing like Zikavirus or HIV.

Really, no one is saying it's not serious. Quite frankly, everyone's in agreement that the virus has to be contained and we use common sense and practice basic hygiene. The "people saying it's not a serious problem" are basically saying that overblown panic and emotional "doom-and-gloom" aren't helping matters when it comes to tackling the coronavirus. The coronavirus actually has a contagion factor less than that of SARs, a virus that wreaked havoc mostly in China a decade or so ago, but yet 10 years later we're acting like we're in the middle of the apocalypse, and... yes, the media isn't really doing much to quell fears. It's not about numbers or percentages. It's about fixing the problem even maybe before analyzing the problem and trying to blame others or belittle others, if for not really panicking like others, or if you're from the area the virus originated from.

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HobbitGamer

@Vee_Flames This. Exactly this. It is a serious illness, but I’m not in a state of fear over it. That doesn’t mean I’m dismissing it, but simply being realistic to my own lifestyle.

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Heavyarms55

@Vee_Flames "Really, no one is saying it's not serious." That's just factually untrue. From countless people online to world leaders who I don't need to name - people are brushing it off as a total nonissue on a regular basis. It's spreading like wildfire despite the fact that the whole world is bending over backward to slow it down.

Frankly I'm getting really sick of people brushing it off. Panic isn't helping - but I'm not seeing much panic. People aren't rioting in the streets or running around in terror. The closest thing to panic is people stocking up on toilet paper and stores selling out of hand sanitizer. On the other hand you have celebrities deliberating touching all the microphones at press conferences talking about how unconcerned they are - and then testing positive for the illness. You have world leaders and national insert regional medical leader title here testing positive and/or going into quarantine.

A lot of people like to say something like Y2K was a hoax, a non-problem because nothing ended up happening. But the truth of that is, the world fixed the problem before it could get out of control. That's the same thing people are trying to do with Covid19. They are trying to stop it before it reaches disaster level. And even if they succeed (and God bless I hope they do!) those same people will then say things like that. That it was a hoax or non-issue. Or worse, they'll spread the conspiracy theories that it was some political party's attempt to topple certain world leaders.

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Maxz

I thought COVID-19 had a higher contagion rate than SARS, but a lower lethality rate?

I’ve heard that from a number of sources, but here’s the first one that popped up (admittedly a few weeks old now): https://www.businessinsider.com/china-wuhan-coronavirus-compa...

Edited on by Maxz

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mesome713

@Vee_Flames Coronavirus death rate is WAY higher than the common flu. That's why people are freaking out. Had companies and countries not been so greedy and worried about money so much, we could have locked this virus down in the beginning instead of 4 months later.

Edited on by mesome713

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Maxz

As Heavy has said, the problem is exacerbated by extreme societal divisions. All people buying up toilet paper en masse achieve is running their local stores out of toilet paper. On the other hand, people trying to ‘make a point’ by sticking their head in the sand on the issue and running around as normal simply contribute to the spread of the virus.

The necessary precautions for most people to take are actually rather unremarkable and mundane, and consist of more of ‘not doing things’ than anything else. Don’t travel further than you have to. Don’t attend large social gatherings. Basically lie low for a while and wait for things to blow over (if that’s not an overly breezy expression to use in the circumstances). Oh, and yes, wash your hands.

Sitting at home playing playing video games is not exactly the most ‘heroic’ of actions to save the world, but it might be the most effective thing we can do on an individual level, and it should at least come naturally to most of us.

Edited on by Maxz

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NEStalgia

@ThanosReXXX Sadly I have never been there, though Italy and Japan are the two places if I could pick anywhere to live, it would be. Not at the moment, though... I am however exceedingly familiar with the culture, the people, (and the cooking), which is really all one and the same. Suffice to say the area is, or at least, was one of the "Little Italys" of the North. There's still quite a bit of it here, but not like it was 30, 40 years ago. But plenty of people coming and going from Italy. Which normally I love. Right now it's kind of a source of panic. There are certain people I certainly won't be visiting this Easter, that's for darned sure... Suffice to say "lets-a-go" is a phrase I don't associate with Mario immediately. Or at least not a Mario that wears overalls. .....Or at least not a Mario that wears overalls and jumps over turtles.

EATING is at home. Caffe is not at home. Well caffe after the first one that is just enough to get to the other one(s), anyway....

Long story short: Lots of communal activity in daily routine in an uninterruptible way.

@Ralizah I'm one bar soap away from being Howard Hughes. I hold my breath when passing people in a store. Because of covid? No...I always do.

Well on the political side, and not to derail too far in that direction, but as I said, I'm not partisan or on "right or left" and generally dislike both and see the whole charade as what it is: A uniparty representing the stock market and it's leadership. They choose teams and divide among arbitrary lines but the story is always the same. In his case, despite popular opinion from leftward critics and status quo rightward critics alike, his popularity was about one thing: He was supposed to break everything. I don't think many people ever expected him to be a great statesman. They wanted a blunt instrument to shatter the existing system, corruption and bureaucracy to bits like a bull in a china shop so someone ELSE could fix it all after in the cleanup. A simple weapon to wield against the establishment. But...that never happened so the whole experiment was kind of a failure all the way around. BUT I still haven't been too allied with the hate bandwagon. Most of the time it goes out of its way to find things to dislike, to argue with, to pick on personality flaws that have been punchlines since the 70's and make them process issues, and just general pedantic partisan politicking at its worst. But this time, it's not his enemies reaching to make him look like a blundering incompetent. He did it himself in front of all the rolling cameras, and did it persistently with, of all things, a disease. The very same stupidity we point fingers at China for was duplicated in real time. That one can't be overlooked. He dug that hole with his own shovel while everyone, friends and enemies alike watched. I'm not sure I"m truly joining the hate bandwagon just because the bandwagonneers are equally idiotic more times than not. But it certainly keeps me from having anything but disgust. Not that I like anyone else around much better. You don't mess around with contagious diseases. That's beyond stupid.

NEStalgia

Heavyarms55

The thing is, in terms of numbers we can't really say if the mortality is actually higher or lower than other illnesses. The data we have so far is rough and piecemeal. Compared to decades of study of other illnesses. And that's part of the problem, Covid-19 is new. We don't have that wealth of information and experience in dealing with it yet. But we will get there. We will beat the virus, we will get the spread under control. That will happen.

Countries and politicians just need to set aside politics and cooperate on this. Viruses don't care about race, religion, political allegiance, nationality etc... It's quite literally in everyone's interest to work together on this issue.

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NEStalgia

@Heavyarms55 I do recall someone discussing the need for a population reduction via wars as a natural vent of population concentration before nature has to do it and it's much much worse......and that nature WOULD do it if we failed to. Can you think of any wise elders who once spoke of such things?

@Maxz That's it, you just saved the world, and E3. "Be a hero, stay home and play video games all day!" Why didn't I think of that marketing campaign?!

NEStalgia

Heavyarms55

@NEStalgia Really Japan is doing rather well compared to most other hard hit countries. Yes Japan has taken serious measures to slow the spread - and they seem to be working. Many other countries have been hit far harder than we have here. Obviously China and Italy, but Iran, South Korea, Spain, France, Germany and America have all been hit harder. And if you don't count the Diamond Princess, Switzerland and Norway have been hit harder as well.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

And I do know there were... certain groups... advocating for population reduction in order to fix a variety of problems. I'd rather not name them.

Edited on by Heavyarms55

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Vee_Flames

Heavyarms55 wrote:

@Vee_Flames "Really, no one is saying it's not serious." That's just factually untrue. From countless people online to world leaders who I don't need to name - people are brushing it off as a total nonissue on a regular basis. It's spreading like wildfire despite the fact that the whole world is bending over backward to slow it down.

I mean, where are these countless people at, Facebook? And are these countless people saying it's a non-issue, or are they saying that the panic is overblown? Because I think those are two different things. And world leaders dismissing it on a regular basis? I mean, Japan and Italy are pretty much on lockdown to prevent the spread of the virus, and even the US president addressed the nation and banned travel to Europe (the efficacy of which is being debated, but eh). Local governments and world governments and organizations are taking steps necessary to tackle the virus. WHO declared the virus a pandemic. My state of Arizona declared a public health emergency. I think California did so, too.

Frankly I'm getting really sick of people brushing it off. Panic isn't helping - but I'm not seeing much panic. People aren't rioting in the streets or running around in terror. The closest thing to panic is people stocking up on toilet paper and stores selling out of hand sanitizer. On the other hand you have celebrities deliberating touching all the microphones at press conferences talking about how unconcerned they are - and then testing positive for the illness. You have world leaders and national insert regional medical leader title here testing positive and/or going into quarantine.

I think when people mention panic, we mean panic on the interwebs. And the interwebs is a massive source of information. And misinformation. And sensationalism. And drama. But even on the streets - in real life, word is that stores are running out of vital stuff like hand sanitizers and isopropyl alcohol because people are buying them in droves, and that's not even considering that running around to get these things just puts you at risk for getting the virus, if anything. I'd imagine that those who really need to use hand sanitizers and places that really need isoprop alcohol like hospitals and rural clinics would be affected by the surge in demand. And celebrities? Last I heard, Tom Hanks and his wife got the virus and are safely recovering, not sure which other ones have been infected or carelessly touching microphones.

A lot of people like to say something like Y2K was a hoax, a non-problem because nothing ended up happening. But the truth of that is, the world fixed the problem before it could get out of control. That's the same thing people are trying to do with Covid19. They are trying to stop it before it reaches disaster level. And even if they succeed (and God bless I hope they do!) those same people will then say things like that. That it was a hoax or non-issue. Or worse, they'll spread the conspiracy theories that it was some political party's attempt to topple certain world leaders.

Funny enough, the conspiracy theories have started, although thankfully not to a point where it's THAT serious. Besides that though, we have a lot of concern flying around, and what does everyone recommend we do? Oh yeah, just wash our hands and not really touch our faces. Avoid the sick. Oh, and maybe don't freak out by not eating at some places while eating at others. Common sense behavior. Isn't that, and fixating on the facts - not a big deal for healthy adults and even children, death rates not nearly as bad as the yearly flu, you're less likely to get infected if you don't go around that often, etc... isn't that more effective in fighting this (alongside speeding up creation of treatment options like vaccines) more effective than saying things like "this could be a disaster?" Heck, we're just in March and the amount of times we've heard that from the start of the year (mostly due to world events) is almost tiring at this point.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/pharmacies-and-groce...

@Maxz For some reason, I couldn't find the source I was thinking of when I heard about the contagious rate (my brother actually showed it to me, and it had these circles that were colored in according to their contagion rate. Compared to the common flu, coronavirus was interestingly just shy of the flu's number of colored circles), but here's an article that essentially says the same thing: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/10/coronavirus-vs-sa...
Of course, it's worth noting that the coronavirus pandemic is still in its early stages and such numbers may change as we go, but at the end of the day I do think calmness is key to making sure contagion rates stay low. It's also worth noting that logically, the flu should have a higher lethality rate because.. ya know, that thing mutates every single day and infects more people, leading to more deaths. It's not something the interwebs (and the media) warns about, though.. only telling you to go get the flu shot for inconvenience sake rather than the possibility that you could die from it.

@mesome713 Ahh... well um, you gotta provide some sources for that (especially about the bit where the death rate is "WAY higher"). And even then, I'm pretty sure that's not the reason why people are freaking out. It's a scary new thing, and people want to feel safe about it. Everyone does.


At the end of the day, do we have solid numbers for those who aren't doing anything about the virus and going about their day like nothing's happening? I don't think so, so let's not really make that claim and continue to fight this virus with what we've got. We did it with SARS, we did it with ebola, and I'm pretty sure we're going to deal with the coronavirus with current advances in pharmaceutical technology.
By the way, here's a handy website from Johns Hopkins University tracking cases all over the world. Pretty fascinating stuff. https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.ht...

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ThanosReXXX

@NEStalgia So, basically what you're saying is that you're talking about the same thing that other people are doing, during the mornings and lunch hours? Queuing for Starbucks to get their much needed shot of extra caffeine?

All kidding aside though, I don't think you can actually consider a Little Italy as an accurate representation of actual Italian life, nor can you do that with any other Little whatever. We also have those kinds of quarters over here, and there's even an entire Chinese district in the city of Amsterdam, but it's completely Westernized, to cater to our, compared to their home country's, rather crude and/or simple tastes.

It's only been for the last 4 to 5 years or so that actual Asian foods have been reaching our tables, such as sushi, teppan yaki and the like. Either way, too much off topic, so I'll stop here.

@Vee_Flames Not saying you're not one of the people that's not taking it seriously, but there's a big difference between those people, and the concerned but more down to Earth people, so we should not put both of these groups in one basket.

And having said that, I think that even without panicking, it's still quite appropriate to say that it's definitely not going to be a cake walk. And your numbers definitely seem to be off. As @Maxz already showed in the link he posted, COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire, and considerably faster than SARS, which was only ever a primarily local disease, with only as few outliers because of travelers, while the current virus has spread across the entire Earth in a matter of two months, literally. And by now, the total number of infected, or rather: known infected, is well over 127.000, and the death toll so far is about to reach 5000, so definitely nothing to scoff at, and we're not out of the woods yet.

Another difference with SARS or even AIDS or Ebola is that we haven't had so many countries going into full lock downs in our lifetimes, so that should already tell you more than enough. That's not just a hoax or whatever the delusionals are trying to make us believe. It's a serious state that the world is in now, regardless of the fact of whether or not this virus can become deadly to healthy people as well, instead of only the already weak and elderly.

Just imagine specific services having a lot of bed-ridden people, such as the police, the fire brigade and God forbid, hospital personnel. Who will then replace these people? Even if they'd ultimately recover again, they could very well be out for the count for multiple weeks if not months.

@Heavyarms55 Completely agreed with pretty much all you've said so far.

Edited on by ThanosReXXX

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Vee_Flames

@ThanosReXXX which numbers were off? When I said contagion factor, I meant basically the number of persons a single infected individual would infect if some large number of persons surrounded the individual. And yes, while the coronavirus has infected quite a lot of people in a short amount of time, we don't quite know how it got into many countries. Long incubation (2 to 14 days for the coronavirus, last I checked) rates may play a role, and people showing mild symptoms or are even non-symptomatic but are walking around could also play a role.

Really, I could go on about difference in... concern levels (lol) between various persons or how the crown virus compares to other viruses, but I don't even think that matters at this point. Everyone and everybody at this point is taking precautions to stop the spread of the virus, so I'm reaaaaally not sure who exactly is burying their heads in the sand at this point or who is not taking it "seriously." Not sure who's saying this is a hoax. As someone who works on a regular basis in the healthcare field, we're taking the virus seriously but we're still dedicated to the patients we are treating and not walking out, and I'm sure the specific services you're referring to are doing the same thing. We're all pretty much on the same side here, so hopefully it's just a matter of time before we manage to contain this virus.

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Maxz

@Vee_Flames Well on the first page we have someone outright declaring the virus to be “not a big deal”, if you want a concrete example of someone brushing the virus aside.

I mean, if you calibrate your ‘big-deal-o-meter’ such that that anything short of the bubonic plague or whatever killed the dinosaurs doesn’t count as a ‘big deal’, then yes, it is possible to put current outbreak in ‘not a big deal’ territory. But like, that doesn’t seem like a very useful ‘big-deal-o-meter’ to be working with. You may as well use the ‘Am I Dead?’ system, whereby you ask yourself the stated question and if the answer is “No”, then everything is fine, and if the answer is “Yes” then you’re either lying or have discovered the afterlife.

In my life I’ve never known a disease to have such wide-spread and evident impact on the running of so many nations. That’s enough for it to register at least above the ‘somewhat of a big deal’ mark on my personal ‘big-deal-o-meter’.

And speaking personally, I’ve been told to work from home for the last 2-3 weeks, and every event I had planned cancelled, which is also a personal first. I can’t say I’ve actually minded being at home too much, really. There hasn’t been a whole lot of work to do, so I’ve just been pottering around the house and cleaning, which has been quite pleasant. But, like, the fact I’ve had a relatively pleasant time milling around in my house doesn’t detract from the fact that there is a pandemic going on and a lot of other people have been much more severely affected.

As someone in in their twenties without any existing ailments, I’m not unduly worried for my health on a personal level, but my dad back in Blighty is in his 80s and has recently had a lung operation, so I’m not too keen on the idea of him contracting a novel respiratory disease known to be particularly aggressive towards older people.

As other users have stated, I hope you don’t think anyone is implicating you in any of this. I don’t believe anyone thinks you’ve personally got your head in the sand, but the “it’s not a big deal” line has remained alive for far longer than it should have. It’s only at this late stage that people are starting to reconsider, and you only have to look at the rhetoric of BigT from a few weeks ago to see examples of world leaders acting blithely towards when the virus at the point when preventative measures would have been most effective.

Edited on by Maxz

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Zeldafan79

I don't know if i've got the virus but i have recently come down with this horrible cough and sore throat. I haven't been traveling or anything like that though. I am almost ready to get myself tested but It'll probably just come up as a plain old fever. Hmm what to do. Freak out like the rest of the world or wait it out?
This dang illness is messing up everything!

Edited on by Zeldafan79

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