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Topic: The Binding of Isaac teased yet again

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ejvirzi

121. Posted:

@TrueWiiMaster

Obviously, for the most part, we can't really come to any agreement here. If BoI is really just based on hate, then I agree it probably shouldn't be on the eShop, but if it is serious critique, even if you think it is hurtful, then Nintendo should allow it on the platform. Obviously it is Nintendo's prerogative to put it up or not given they are a private company. They wouldn't censor it because they find it hurtful, but rather because they don't want to upset a vocal portion of their customers, a business decision.

Also, if people have to say they are christian, even if they are not, would point to how christianity is a source of power and is not being oppressed in America. In other words, a politician has to be seen as part of the privileged group rather than an outsider.

Anyway, no hurt feelings. It will be interesting to see if it ends up on the eShop or not.

ejvirzi

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TrueWiiMaster

122. Posted:

ejvirzi wrote:

Obviously, for the most part, we can't really come to any agreement here. If BoI is really just based on hate, then I agree it probably shouldn't be on the eShop, but if it is serious critique, even if you think it is hurtful, then Nintendo should allow it on the platform. Obviously it is Nintendo's prerogative to put it up or not given they are a private company. They wouldn't censor it because they find it hurtful, but rather because they don't want to upset a vocal portion of their customers, a business decision.

Also, if people have to say they are christian, even if they are not, would point to how christianity is a source of power and is not being oppressed in America. In other words, a politician has to be seen as part of the privileged group rather than an outsider.

Anyway, no hurt feelings. It will be interesting to see if it ends up on the eShop or not.

Whether it's a critique or not, it's still unnecessarily insulting. If the developer wanted to critique Christianity, he could have done a much better job without his blatant, hateful insults.

I think Nintendo would block it even if the majority of their customers weren't Christian. Put another way, I think they would also block a game that attacks Muslims, homosexuals, or other minorities. They aren't in the market of offending people, regardless of whether it would cost them money or not.

First, I'd say that people just prefer to vote for people they think have the same beliefs they do. It has nothing to do with Christianity being a source of power or privilege. And second, Christians aren't privileged. Everyone enjoys equal religious rights, and laws do not favor Christianity.

I am the TrueWiiMaster! Those who call the Wii casual BEWARE!

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Klimbatize

123. Posted:

TrueWiiMaster wrote:

...Christians aren't privileged. Everyone enjoys equal religious rights, and laws do not favor Christianity.

LOL.

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Storytime7

124. Posted:

I noticed some of you seem to be discussing the message this game was trying to convey. If you want to know a bit more about Edmund McMillen (the guy who created this game) and get a better understanding of why his games are the way they are, eurogamer did an interview with him a few years back:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-06-29-the-binding-of-e...

Storytime7

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shaneoh

125. Posted:

TrueWiiMaster wrote:

Fiction is not automatically parody. The definition of a parody is a humorous or satirical imitation of something serious.

Fiction is the ultimate parody. It is a mimicry of life, events, places and organisms. Like I said, it doesn't have to be funny

TrueWiiMaster wrote:

I'm pretty sure you're in the minority there. Most people wouldn't want to support racism, sexism, etc. Even if the game was free, they probably wouldn't enjoy a game filled with those ideas, even if the game was well made. Adding such games to the eshop would definitely hurt Nintendo's reputation, and they wouldn't even consider it. Even Microsoft and Sony would block games like that from their platforms (I think they have a policy blocking all racist and pornographic content).

Never said I supported it, but they are usable story telling techniques. Racism, homophobia, sexism, pornography are available in all other forms of media, why shouldn't they or religious views be permitted in games as well?

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TrueWiiMaster

126. Posted:

shaneoh wrote:

Fiction is the ultimate parody. It is a mimicry of life, events, places and organisms. Like I said, it doesn't have to be funny

Never said I supported it, but they are usable story telling techniques. Racism, homophobia, sexism, pornography are available in all other forms of media, why shouldn't they or religious views be permitted in games as well?

According to the definition, it has to be funny or satirical. Simply being an imitation doesn't make something a parody.

If you buy racist, homophobic, sexist, or pornographic content, you're supporting it. Maybe you never meant you would buy it, but that's the implication I got when you said you'd be okay with it if it was fun.

There seems to be a misunderstanding. I'm not exactly against such content being made, or even bought. I think it's disgusting, and I think people who make and/or buy it are disrespectful, insensitive, and perhaps even hateful, but it's their right to make and buy what they want. I've been arguing that this game is insulting to Christianity and Jews, and that it shouldn't come to the eshop, not that it should be censored.

I am the TrueWiiMaster! Those who call the Wii casual BEWARE!

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Aviator

127. Posted:

Klimbatize wrote:

TrueWiiMaster wrote:

...Christians aren't privileged. Everyone enjoys equal religious rights, and laws do not favor Christianity.

LOL.

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ejvirzi

128. Posted:

Well from what I read about the game and the creator there is no reason this game should not be allowed on the eShop. If Nintendo further denies this game for the eShop they should give actual reasons why. It seems that BoI is a strong expression of the creator's experience in his childhood. Nintendo should explain why that experience is offensive for the rest of us and how it somehow does not create a good gameplay experience.

Now, I'm going to go watch some blasphemous Twilight Zone episodes...

ejvirzi

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TrueWiiMaster

129. Posted:

ejvirzi wrote:

Well from what I read about the game and the creator there is no reason this game should not be allowed on the eShop. If Nintendo further denies this game for the eShop they should give actual reasons why. It seems that BoI is a strong expression of the creator's experience in his childhood. Nintendo should explain why that experience is offensive for the rest of us and how it somehow does not create a good gameplay experience.

Now, I'm going to go watch some blasphemous Twilight Zone episodes...

As I understand it, Nintendo doesn't typically allow anything directly relating to real religions on their systems. That includes BoI, which blatantly references and insults Christianity and Judaism, but not games like SMT, which draws from various religions.

Even aside from that policy, though, Nintendo should strive to keep truly insulting, offensive, or hateful content off the eshop, including BoI, not for the sake of those who wouldn't mind, but out of respect for and sensitivity to those who would.

I am the TrueWiiMaster! Those who call the Wii casual BEWARE!

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eviLaTtenDant

130. Posted:

@TrueWiiMaster As often as you repeat yourself right now i'm not surprised many are annoyed by people like you.

Edited on by eviLaTtenDant

Number 2? Says who? >=o]

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Operative

131. Posted:

Aviator wrote:

Klimbatize wrote:

TrueWiiMaster wrote:

...Christians aren't privileged. Everyone enjoys equal religious rights, and laws do not favor Christianity.

LOL.

Operative

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TrueWiiMaster

132. Posted:

eviLaTtenDant wrote:

@TrueWiiMaster As often as you repeat yourself right now i'm not surprised many are annoyed by people like you.

The same points warrant the same responses.

I am the TrueWiiMaster! Those who call the Wii casual BEWARE!

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k8sMum

133. Posted:

TrueWiiMaster wrote:

eviLaTtenDant wrote:

@TrueWiiMaster As often as you repeat yourself right now i'm not surprised many are annoyed by people like you.

The same points warrant the same responses.

Saying the same things over and over do not make them true.

Christians are not oppressed in the west. Just because some of us r concerned 're: the separation of church and state are maintained does not equate to you being oppressed. You may openly worship where/when you want. You are under no threat from the state to stop or be jailed. You are allowed to talk about your beliefs in any venue. One does not get elected to office in America if one is not religious, usually Christian. To believe otherwise is naivety at its highest level. The 'no true Scotsman' agreement gets tiring, too.

However, being allowed to speak freely your beliefs does not equate to anyone having to listen to what you are saying. I do not have to respect the beliefs of a creationist who wants it taught in schools. I don't have to silently bend my head when told I am going to hell because I am an atheist.

You are privileged in the west, here in the states especially. You are the top of the food chain politically.

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TrueWiiMaster

134. Posted:

k8sMum wrote:

Saying the same things over and over do not make them true.

Christians are not oppressed in the west. Just because some of us r concerned 're: the separation of church and state are maintained does not equate to you being oppressed. You may openly worship where/when you want. You are under no threat from the state to stop or be jailed. You are allowed to talk about your beliefs in any venue. One does not get elected to office in America if one is not religious, usually Christian. To believe otherwise is naivety at its highest level. The 'no true Scotsman' agreement gets tiring, too.

However, being allowed to speak freely your beliefs does not equate to anyone having to listen to what you are saying. I do not have to respect the beliefs of a creationist who wants it taught in schools. I don't have to silently bend my head when told I am going to hell because I am an atheist.

You are privileged in the west, here in the states especially. You are the top of the food chain politically.

No, but if they're true already, they don't become less true with repetition.

Not as they are in the Middle East, no, but there are cases of oppression, and there is fear that such cases will become more common. People are not always allowed to worship where/when they want. Kids have had Bibles confiscated in schools. Christian groups have been denied equal access to public resources (mainly places to gather). People have been fired simply for being Christian. And yes, people have been arrested for preaching Christianity (I'm not sure if that's happened in America, but there have been several cases in the UK).

As I said before, I'd be surprised if every elected official in America was a Christian, but I could be wrong. Either way, that's to be expected when the vast majority of voters are also Christian.

I don't think the "no true Scotsman" point applies here. Christianity is a belief, or set of beliefs, founded on belief in Jesus and the Bible. If someone acts against those beliefs, it does bring the legitimacy of their belief into question, especially when they benefit from claiming to have the belief, as many politicians do.

Of course not. You're no more obligated to listen to me than I am to listen to you. Likewise with respect. Ideally people would respect each other, but they don't have to. That said, it's also true that your views hold no more value than mine. As much as you can turn a deaf ear, I can continue to talk.

People in general are privileged in the West, not just Christians. We enjoy unprecedented freedom. While Christians may be the majority, both in government and in populace, I don't know of any advantages they have because of it (please give me some examples).

I am the TrueWiiMaster! Those who call the Wii casual BEWARE!

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ejvirzi

135. Posted:

@TrueWiiMaster

Here is a good list of some privileges. Specifically the last one of being able to ignore how you are privileged.

http://andythenerd.tumblr.com/post/24621855082/30-examples-of...

and here is a tumblr

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/christian-privilege

ejvirzi

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eviLaTtenDant

136. Posted:

TrueWiiMaster wrote:

eviLaTtenDant wrote:

@TrueWiiMaster As often as you repeat yourself right now i'm not surprised many are annoyed by people like you.

The same points warrant the same responses.

That may very well be true.
But if you constantly tell people how bad they should feel even though you do that in a quite subliminal way - for something they either just don't understand or about which they already have made up their mind - you can't really complain when they do the exact opposite to annoy you because you're getting on their nerves.

Edited on by eviLaTtenDant

Number 2? Says who? >=o]

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TrueWiiMaster

137. Posted:

ejvirzi wrote:

@TrueWiiMaster

Here is a good list of some privileges. Specifically the last one of being able to ignore how you are privileged.

http://andythenerd.tumblr.com/post/24621855082/30-examples-of...

and here is a tumblr

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/christian-privilege

I wouldn't really call most of those privileges. Most of them are inherent to any majority. Yes, stores are more likely to carry products the majority of people will buy. Yes, more Christian voters means more Christian representatives. And yes, Christians, which make up the majority, will know what Christianity is. Other points on the list are just wrong. Christians are regularly judged or mocked for their faith. Christians are often taught by teachers who disagree with Christianity, and even when they're taught by Christian teachers, the teachers are forbidden to bring Christianity into their teaching. When Christians say Christianity is peaceful, people bring up not just what other Christians have done, but what they did hundreds of years ago. Christians are often asked to represent the whole of Christianity. Depending on the other person's experience with Christians, a polite, kind Christian can be considered an exception. While Christian schools are often available, they're usually very expensive, and people who send their children to them usually have to pay taxes toward public schooling as well as pay the private tuition. I have personally experienced all of those things. There were also many points on the list that were irrelevant, pointing out problems other people sometimes face (violence, discrimination, ignorance, etc.) rather than advantages Christianity has. Not being discriminated against or attacked isn't a privilege. It's a right.

I am the TrueWiiMaster! Those who call the Wii casual BEWARE!

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TrueWiiMaster

138. Posted:

eviLaTtenDant wrote:

That may very well be true.
But if you constantly tell people how bad they should feel even though you do that in a quite subliminal way - for something they either just don't understand or about which they already have made up their mind - you can't really complain when they do the exact opposite to annoy you because you're getting on their nerves.

When was I complaining?

I am the TrueWiiMaster! Those who call the Wii casual BEWARE!

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ejvirzi

139. Posted:

TrueWiiMaster wrote:

ejvirzi wrote:

@TrueWiiMaster

Here is a good list of some privileges. Specifically the last one of being able to ignore how you are privileged.

http://andythenerd.tumblr.com/post/24621855082/30-examples-of...

and here is a tumblr

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/christian-privilege

I wouldn't really call most of those privileges. Most of them are inherent to any majority. Yes, stores are more likely to carry products the majority of people will buy. Yes, more Christian voters means more Christian representatives. And yes, Christians, which make up the majority, will know what Christianity is. Other points on the list are just wrong. Christians are regularly judged or mocked for their faith. Christians are often taught by teachers who disagree with Christianity, and even when they're taught by Christian teachers, the teachers are forbidden to bring Christianity into their teaching. When Christians say Christianity is peaceful, people bring up not just what other Christians have done, but what they did hundreds of years ago. Christians are often asked to represent the whole of Christianity. Depending on the other person's experience with Christians, a polite, kind Christian can be considered an exception. While Christian schools are often available, they're usually very expensive, and people who send their children to them usually have to pay taxes toward public schooling as well as pay the private tuition. I have personally experienced all of those things. There were also many points on the list that were irrelevant, pointing out problems other people sometimes face (violence, discrimination, ignorance, etc.) rather than advantages Christianity has. Not being discriminated against or attacked isn't a privilege. It's a right.

You are right. Fundamentalist/fanatical Christians, who insist that they are constantly persecuted (much like paranoid right-winged politicians), are often made fun of. But I don't think you will convince other people that your paranoia is appropriate.

Also rights are privileges...

Edited on by ejvirzi

ejvirzi

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eviLaTtenDant

140. Posted:

TrueWiiMaster wrote:

eviLaTtenDant wrote:

That may very well be true.
But if you constantly tell people how bad they should feel even though you do that in a quite subliminal way - for something they either just don't understand or about which they already have made up their mind - you can't really complain when they do the exact opposite to annoy you because you're getting on their nerves.

When was I complaining?

I guess then i'm not talking about you there.

Edited on by eviLaTtenDant

Number 2? Says who? >=o]

Nintendo Network ID: LTD_2112

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