3DS Virtual Console Forum

Topic: Reflections on beating Zelda II for the first time

Showing 21 to 40 of 94

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Geonjaha

21. Posted:

Adam wrote:

Geonjaha wrote:

No one wants a game that you have to play for hundreds of hours, experiencing more and more misery until your brain just snaps and starts to tell you "Oh - its actually fun" just to save you the pain. You lovers of the game love it now because you know everything about it, and can beat it easily because of all that experience, but that hardly defines a good game. Any game that people can only see as enjoyable once they know every secret deserves no praise. There are always some people that will like a game - especially those that are masters at it, but dont let your experience blind you to the games obvious failure. ;)

It didn't take me hundreds of hours, and it was never misery. Every game gets easier with experience. Any game you love is a good game. I just don't get this at all.

That was directed at the first post, which stated like some others that they hated the game but after playing it for a long time came to enjoy it. What I'm saying is any game that works as such isnt a success. Sure - you enjoy it, and thats fine, but its hard to appreciate something that only becomes so when played over and over again.

@Goldeneye923 - Sorry If I spoiled your mood and that the article made you cry but your opinion is as valid as mine and everyone elses.

SuperToad wrote:

Obvious failure? It was received positively in its heyday. It was my favorite game before I knew 'everything about it' and I was four. Even my older brother liked the game. There are plenty of good NES games that are harder than Zelda II.

Obvious failure to capture the audience they had enticed in the first place, to create a game that the fans could enjoy straight away (not only as adults once they had grown up). I'm sure there are plenty of NES games harder than Zelda II; I'm not saying the game is a failure - as it sold well, just the connection to many of the fans. I probably should have made that clearer first time round ;)

Edited on by theblackdragon

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Usagi-san

22. Posted:

I disagree! the more effort the more satisfying the reward, Lots of games require you to get better at playing. It's a pivotal part of playing games.

"I never swear, my lord, I say yes or no; and, as I am a gentleman, I keep my word." - D'artagnan in Twenty Years After

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Geonjaha

23. Posted:

Of course, thats always the case. But if you're playing the game and you dont enjoy it a lot, and only start to do so because gameplay gets 'easier' as you know what you're doing then the game hasn't really fulfilled its purpose, and it just seems like lots of people TRY to enjoy Zelda II simply because of the franchise.

Edited on by Geonjaha

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Adam

24. Posted:

No, you more than once said something like "you lovers of the game." Unless you think Chicken Brutus is some ethereal entity encompassing all souls who love Zelda 2, you are changing your statement. And furthermore, it's not like he played 100 hours straight. He played it a lot back in the day, didn't get it. He came back to it, "got it", and got through it without any "misery." It's different. The game doesn't always make sense to someone who plays it for the first time expecting another Zelda game. If he never made any significant progress earlier in his Zelda 2 career, there was no significant experience to carry over and help him through it. The experience he had was general video game experience (i.e. I can't figure what to do, let me try out everything I can do with this new item I got), as he explains.

Edited on by Adam

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Geonjaha

25. Posted:

Adam wrote:

No, you more than once said something like "you lovers of the game." Unless you think Chicken Brutus is some ethereal entity encompassing all souls who love Zelda 2, you are changing your statement. And furthermore, it's not like he played 100 hours straight. He played it a lot back in the day, didn't get it. He came back to it, "got it", and got through it without any "misery." It's different. The game doesn't always make sense to newcomers.

My point is he played it a lot back in the day and didnt get it. Tasuki describes the same thing. As I mentioned in my previous post it seems that they were trying to enjoy the game quite a while before managing to do so. How is it fair to call a game a success when Zelda fans have trouble enjoying the game when they are TRYING to do so. The game might make sense to newcomers, its actual Zelda fans who see it as confusing.

Edited on by Geonjaha

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Adam

26. Posted:

I am an actual Zelda fan. I have no problem with it. I didn't understand as a 6-10 year old, but as an adult it makes perfect sense. I could say that about a LOT of games. I am not about to write off the first Zelda or Metroid or basically every other NES game other than Mario 3 because it was hard. I don't see how it matters if a game fits your definition of "Success" if the person enjoys it anyway.

As I mentioned in my previous post and Chicken in his first post, it wasn't experience playing Zelda 2 that helped him through Zelda 2, it was just general video game experience.

Edited on by Adam

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Usagi-san

27. Posted:

I think the problem is people approach Zelda 2 like other games in the series. When I played it on my 3DS I think i had been playing Dragon Quest a fair bit so I decided to approach it like an RPG. This changed everything and I found it much more enjoyable than the other times I tried to get behind it. Zelda 2 really is an enjoyable game once you get past the learning curve.

"I never swear, my lord, I say yes or no; and, as I am a gentleman, I keep my word." - D'artagnan in Twenty Years After

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Geonjaha

28. Posted:

Adam wrote:

I am an actual Zelda fan. I have no problem with it. I didn't understand as a 6-10 year old, but as an adult it makes perfect sense. I could say that about a LOT of games. I am not about to write off the first Zelda or Metroid or basically every other NES game other than Mario 3 because it was hard. I don't see how it's remotely relevant if a game fits your definition of "Success" if the person enjoys it anyway.

As I mentioned in my previous post and Chicken in his first post, it wasn't experience playing Zelda 2 that helped him through Zelda 2, it was just general video game experience.

Let me put it this way. Zelda I; fans enjoyed playing it straight away - If they didn't, why would they have continued?
Zelda II; fans like Chicken and Tasuki play on and off and find it difficult to get into. It took years before one of them could. My point is that Zelda II obviously relies a lot on fan's dedication to enjoy it - even though it wasnt the case for you.

Edited on by Geonjaha

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Adam

29. Posted:

Don't get me wrong. I understand you not wanting to wade through hours of misery to learn to like a game, but I don't think that accurately represents what anyone is doing. Zelda 2 is a collection of simple game concepts that just don't make immediate sense to someone used to seeing these concepts in a different framework. You have item collection that expands your ability to progress, you have simple leveling, simple combat and platforming, a few basic spells you gradually get used to. All that makes it stand out is a somewhat mean difficulty (might sound like understatement, but play any number of other NES games and I think it's fair) and at times obtuse hints, which again was common in the day and again can generally be solved by exploring the world to its fullest even if you don't understand the hint.

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Adam

30. Posted:

Umm.... I had the exact same experience with Zelda 1 and so did a very many people I know: Tried it as a kid, never could figure out what to do; tried it as an adult, loved the heck out of it. Any difficult game requires dedication. You are just singling out Zelda 2 because it is the black sheep of a franchise, as many do. It is only considered frustrating because people treat it like a normal Zelda game and not as a different kind of game altogether, which it obviously is.

The argument just doesn't make sense. If someone likes a game, it is irrelevant if you call it a success or not.

Edited on by Adam

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JayArr

31. Posted:

People like Geonjaha are why Ocarina of Time 3D has cheat stones that tell you exactly where to go and what to do built in. They are the reason if die in Mario Galaxy 2 a few times the game beats it for you while you watch. "Omg, this challenge is ruining my experience! This game is garbage!". No, those little cheat systems are garbage. They are robbing an entire generation of that amazing satisfaction of accomplishing a feat of difficulty or wit with only your own intelligence and determination. It's a truly beautiful moment and there is nothing else quite like it.

I feel genuine pity for people that need to have their hand held or no difficulty involved to enjoy a game or deem it a success. You might as well just stick to watching movies or reading books........

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Geonjaha

32. Posted:

JayArr wrote:

People like Geonjaha are why Ocarina of Time 3D has cheat stones that tell you exactly where to go and what to do built in. They are the reason if die in Mario Galaxy 2 a few times the game beats it for you while you watch. "Omg, this challenge is ruining my experience! This game is garbage!". No, those little cheat systems are garbage. They are robbing an entire generation of that amazing satisfaction of accomplishing a feat of difficulty or wit with only your own intelligence and determination. It's a truly beautiful moment and there is nothing else quite like it.

I feel genuine pity for people that need to have their hand held or no difficulty involved to enjoy a game or deem it a success. You might as well just stick to watching movies or reading books........

Ok...I really dont understand where you're coming from with this. Not once did I say that I dont play Zelda II because it is difficult, nor did I say that the game was bad simply for being difficult. No idea why you're throwing that at me. For the record I dont like the cheat stones in OoT either and dont use them; they degrade the fun of exploring which is what Zelda is all about.

Edited on by Geonjaha

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Adam

33. Posted:

It is hard to understand what you're saying because you aren't really saying anything specific about the game at all.

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Geonjaha

34. Posted:

Tasuki wrote:

Congratulations CB.

I have tried many a times to get into Zelda 2. Like you I got it for a present (cant remember if it was for a birthday or Christmas) and I remember how annoying it was. The vague clues the grinding and of course some of the enemies like Iron Knuckle (Ohhh how I still curse you to this day).

I have the Zelda Collection disc on GC and several times I have tried it again and again only to get annoyed by the leveling up and the fact that it goes to zero if you get a game over. The last time I played which was a few months ago I got lossed in the maze on the way to find the hammer. Maybe I will give it a try in a few months.

^ This is what I'm talking about. Not about the difficulty that he mentions, but the fact that he's going back and back to the game because it is Zelda despite the fact that he cant really get into it. What I was trying to say is that the game didnt fare as well as it could have if fans like him have to try so hard to enjoy it.

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Usagi-san

35. Posted:

It sorta reads like the reason he can't get into it is the difficulty.

"I never swear, my lord, I say yes or no; and, as I am a gentleman, I keep my word." - D'artagnan in Twenty Years After

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Adam

36. Posted:

You could say that about all sorts of games. It was a mistake to call the game Zelda, I don't think many would argue that. That doesn't make it a bad game. It succeeded brilliantly at what it set out to do. I don't see why you lump him in with Zelda 2 lovers or fans. Nothing he says implies he particularly likes it at all.

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Geonjaha

37. Posted:

It may be a good game, but it's a bad Zelda game. I didnt say he likes it at all, I'm just pointing out that he goes back to it over and over again but still cant enjoy it. A complaint that comes up most with Zelda II out of all of the games.

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Adam

38. Posted:

That has nothing whatsoever to do with your first post. You address Chicken and Zelda 2 lovers. He clearly doesn't love the game but has some curiosity or dedication to the series.

I mean, really, what exactly is your complaint? What is wrong with the game other than its name?

Edited on by Adam

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Geonjaha

39. Posted:

Adam wrote:

He clearly doesn't love the game but has some curiosity or dedication to the series.

I mean, really, what exactly is your complaint? What is wrong with the game? It changes with every post.

Basically my complaint is that it isnt a good game in the Zelda series. Maybe a good game, but not a good Zelda game. The fact that some fans of Zelda II only got to be fans of the game through dedication (Games shouldn't rely on fan dedication - they should just impress straight up).

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pixelman

40. Posted:

For what it's worth, I first played Zelda II last year at 17 y/o... or maybe early this year, I can't remember. I didn't finish it (I got the downthrust and maybe to the fourth temple?) but I absolutely loved every minute of it. I think that's mostly due to my playing a ton of classic RPGs. I understood that leveling makes you way more powerful, and as soon as I found out that you lose all of your EXP when you Game Over a lot of strategy — and risks — came into play.

For instance, one time fairly early on I was just a few points from leveling up, but one or two more hits would've meant a game over for me. Do I backtrack out of the palace, cross the desert and a cave to heal up, or do I risk a battle with a Stalfos and get the level up? I took the risk and I failed, but I ended up just laughing, shook my head and tried again. It was my fault. I screwed up... not the game.

When I got to the fourth palace that was when the difficulty really started getting hard to handle, and I ended up being distracted by other games (such as DKCR and beyond). I'd love to get back into this on my 3DS, but the current button setup is just way too uncomfortable for me, and in this kind of game it's all the more important to have precise, comfortable controls. I'm hoping Nintendo will release an update to the 3DS VC that'll let us customize our button layout, but until then... very few games are worth getting hand cramps over. This is close though. :3

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