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Topic: Has the 3DS started to build a respectable RPG Library?

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SCAR392

41. Posted:

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pixelman

42. Posted:

I'd say it's slowly building, though there's still not much that's interesting me. Dragon Quest 7 sounds good, but it'll probably be 2014 before it hits over here. It looks like Bravely Default might be being localized as "All the Bravest" in the west, so there's that too. And of course Fire Emblem.

The others like EO4, SMT, etc. don't really interest me. I think it's still a pretty poor lineup overall.

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Unca_Lz

43. Posted:

RR529 wrote:

MrNiceGuy wrote:

LZBirdboi wrote:

By its technical definition, most games are RPGs. Just saying :3

I've always thought this too..

Traditionally, in RPGs you create your own character & story, and choose what kind of weapons & skills you'd have (which would impact your created story). You're literally creating & deciding for yourself what your role in the game world is.

Since you don't have any say in what roles Mario, Peach, or Bowser play in a Mario platformer for example, it's not an RPG, despite the fact that you are playing the "role" of Mario.

You don't make your own story or characters in a JRPG either though, and that's actually what seperates them from RPGs. They still retain some things though, such as an exp based leveling system, and myriad of equipment (although, unlike an RPG, your choice of equipment doesn't effect narrative). they were created because consoles originally couldn't handle the openness of true RPGs, but have now evolved into their own genré with extravagant stories.

To be fair, most RPGs don't follow this formula :)

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RR529

44. Posted:

There are 2 things that are very important to the classification of an RPG:

  • Choice
  • exp based leveling system

In Zelda, nothing you do during the adventure effects the outcome of the story (with the exception of maybe Majora's Mask), for the most part you have no choice as to what items you aquire, when you aquire them (you usually don't get an item until the game decides it's necessary) or when to use them (puzzles usually have to be solved in a very specific manner, with little room for leeway).

Also (with the exception of Zelda II), the series lacks any sort of exp based levelling system.

So, despite a couple of experimental entries, the series mostly lacks these very important RPG elements.

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Gamesake

45. Posted:

@pixelman Fire Emblem is a strategy game not an RPG. Fire Emblem became an SRPG for Nintendo when people started criticising Nintendo handhelds for not having RPGs on them.

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SCAR392

46. Posted:

Doesn't strategy as a whole count as an RPG element?

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kkslider5552000

47. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

Doesn't strategy as a whole count as an RPG element?

no.

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pixelman

48. Posted:

Gamesake wrote:

@pixelman Fire Emblem is a strategy game not an RPG.

Actually, it's both.

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HaastMK7

49. Posted:

They have started off their RPG games with Paper Mario Sticker Star.

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moomoo

50. Posted:

Gamesake wrote:

@pixelman Fire Emblem is a strategy game not an RPG. Fire Emblem became an SRPG for Nintendo when people started criticising Nintendo handhelds for not having RPGs on them.

Considering that Fire Emblem features things like levelling-up, various stats like attack, HP, etc., then yes, I'd consider it part RPG. So it is a SRPG.

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Gamesake

51. Posted:

@pixelman I wasn't being serious. I'm not an RPG purist. If you want to call FE a strategy game with RPG elements, feel free. But it does feel more like a strategy game than anything else. That's why I like Fire Emblem.

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kkslider5552000

52. Posted:

moomoo wrote:

Gamesake wrote:

@pixelman Fire Emblem is a strategy game not an RPG. Fire Emblem became an SRPG for Nintendo when people started criticising Nintendo handhelds for not having RPGs on them.

Considering that Fire Emblem features things like levelling-up, various stats like attack, HP, etc., then yes, I'd consider it part RPG. So it is a SRPG.

that's not how that works. At best being an RPG is a far, far 2nd part of the game's genre.

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kkslider5552000

53. Posted:

moomoo wrote:

Gamesake wrote:

@pixelman Fire Emblem is a strategy game not an RPG. Fire Emblem became an SRPG for Nintendo when people started criticising Nintendo handhelds for not having RPGs on them.

Considering that Fire Emblem features things like levelling-up, various stats like attack, HP, etc., then yes, I'd consider it part RPG. So it is a SRPG.

that's not how that works. At best being an RPG is a far, far 2nd part of the game's genre.

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Bankai

54. Posted:

LZBirdboi wrote:

RR529 wrote:

MrNiceGuy wrote:

LZBirdboi wrote:

By its technical definition, most games are RPGs. Just saying :3

I've always thought this too..

Traditionally, in RPGs you create your own character & story, and choose what kind of weapons & skills you'd have (which would impact your created story). You're literally creating & deciding for yourself what your role in the game world is.

Since you don't have any say in what roles Mario, Peach, or Bowser play in a Mario platformer for example, it's not an RPG, despite the fact that you are playing the "role" of Mario.

You don't make your own story or characters in a JRPG either though, and that's actually what seperates them from RPGs. They still retain some things though, such as an exp based leveling system, and myriad of equipment (although, unlike an RPG, your choice of equipment doesn't effect narrative). they were created because consoles originally couldn't handle the openness of true RPGs, but have now evolved into their own genré with extravagant stories.

To be fair, most RPGs don't follow this formula :)

That's because the gamers who haven't played proper RPGs (of which there are few examples in videogames) tend to call random games they like, like Zelda, as an RPG. Because they tend to take "Role Playing Game" literally, when the actual genre is not a literal interpretation of the name.

RPGs are games like Skyrim and to a lesser extent Dragon Age and The Witcher - games where players don't follow a prescribed path through a plot, but rather have direct control over the direction of the narrative. The idea is that the AI is meant to play the role of the "Dungeon Master" - a concept from Dungeons & Dragons where one of the players around a physical table would design a game world for the other players to explore. The Dungeon Master was not there to dictate a story to the players, and that's been something game developers have struggled with - giving control of the narrative to the player - but there's a couple of examples out there.

The RPG genre has nothing whatsoever to do with having control of a character, of levelling up or statistics, or anything else that simplistic. Those features are in most RPGs, certainly, but an RPG only becomes a real RPG when the player is responsible for the story - what makes an RPG an RPG is a philosophy towards game design, not in-game features.

Minecraft is closer to an RPG than almost anything people have mentioned in here. Minecraft might not have statistics and such, but it's a player-generated story.

The games industry has generated a whole bunch of subgenres that people mistakenly label as "RPGs." JRPGs look and play nothing like Skyrim, so why do people call them both "RPGs?" Fire Emblem is a strategy/ JRPG hybrid, and is completely incomparable to Skyrim. Zelda is an action/ adventure game and bears no resemblance to any of the above mentioned games.

The point of genre is to give people who might not have played a game before a way of getting an immediate understanding about what the game is about. To tell someone that Zelda is an "RPG" is doing them a massive disfavour, since if that person loves Dungeons & Dragons and Skyrim, there is no guarantee that they will enjoy Zelda.

In conclusion, let's stick to calling apples apples, oranges oranges, and spades spades. Skyrim is an RPG, Final Fantasy is a JRPG, Zelda is an Action Adventure game.

The 3DS, once again, has no RPGs on it right now. The DS only had one or two. it's not a genre that does so well on handhelds.

Edited on by Bankai

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rayword45

55. Posted:

If we can be really loose, what then separates a simulation game or a sandbox game from an RPG?

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SCAR392

56. Posted:

Well then what the hell is an RPG? You play a role in every game you play. I thought RPG games were mainly turn based, had certain variables that affect the gameplay, a linear story like non-RPG games, customization options that are also available in non-RPGs, etc... Pretty much every game has an RPG element.

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Bankai

57. Posted:

rayword45 wrote:

If we can be really loose, what then separates a simulation game or a sandbox game from an RPG?

In simulation games you don't typically have control over a single character.

Some history for you - the RPG genre - Dungeons & Dragons - began when a Mr. Gary Gygax, who loved tabletop wargames, saw an opportunity. It's great to be playing games where you control thousands of soldiers, but what if you controlled just one hero, and instead of fighting on battlegrounds, you were exploring dungeons and fighting small skirmishes against handfuls of enemies?

Dungeons & Dragons was born. For players to have control over the direction of an RPG plot, they need to be in direct control of one (or small groups of) heroes. Otherwise the player is distanced too much from the narrative. The idea of RPGs being the player is intimately involved in the narrative.

Sandbox games are often RPGs - as I said, Minecraft is closer to an RPG than most people realise. Because the player writes the story of his blocky little hero, it checks off the main box for deciding whether a game is a RPG or not.

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Bankai

58. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

Well then what the hell is an RPG? You play a role in every game you play. I thought RPG games were mainly turn based, had certain variables that affect the gameplay, a linear story like non-RPG games, customization options that are also available in non-RPGs, etc... Pretty much every game has an RPG element.

I just explained what an RPG is...

Just in case you missed it: an RPG is a philosophy to game design where the player is in control of the direction of the narrative. Any game where there's a predetermined end point (or end points in the case of some JRPGs) is not really a RPG.

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SCAR392

59. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

LZBirdboi wrote:

RR529 wrote:

MrNiceGuy wrote:

LZBirdboi wrote:

By its technical definition, most games are RPGs. Just saying :3

I've always thought this too..

Traditionally, in RPGs you create your own character & story, and choose what kind of weapons & skills you'd have (which would impact your created story). You're literally creating & deciding for yourself what your role in the game world is.

Since you don't have any say in what roles Mario, Peach, or Bowser play in a Mario platformer for example, it's not an RPG, despite the fact that you are playing the "role" of Mario.

You don't make your own story or characters in a JRPG either though, and that's actually what seperates them from RPGs. They still retain some things though, such as an exp based leveling system, and myriad of equipment (although, unlike an RPG, your choice of equipment doesn't effect narrative). they were created because consoles originally couldn't handle the openness of true RPGs, but have now evolved into their own genré with extravagant stories.

To be fair, most RPGs don't follow this formula :)

That's because the gamers who haven't played proper RPGs (of which there are few examples in videogames) tend to call random games they like, like Zelda, as an RPG. Because they tend to take "Role Playing Game" literally, when the actual genre is not a literal interpretation of the name.

RPGs are games like Skyrim and to a lesser extent Dragon Age and The Witcher - games where players don't follow a prescribed path through a plot, but rather have direct control over the direction of the narrative. The idea is that the AI is meant to play the role of the "Dungeon Master" - a concept from Dungeons & Dragons where one of the players around a physical table would design a game world for the other players to explore. The Dungeon Master was not there to dictate a story to the players, and that's been something game developers have struggled with - giving control of the narrative to the player - but there's a couple of examples out there.

The RPG genre has nothing whatsoever to do with having control of a character, of levelling up or statistics, or anything else that simplistic. Those features are in most RPGs, certainly, but an RPG only becomes a real RPG when the player is responsible for the story - what makes an RPG an RPG is a philosophy towards game design, not in-game features.

Minecraft is closer to an RPG than almost anything people have mentioned in here. Minecraft might not have statistics and such, but it's a player-generated story.

The games industry has generated a whole bunch of subgenres that people mistakenly label as "RPGs." JRPGs look and play nothing like Skyrim, so why do people call them both "RPGs?" Fire Emblem is a strategy/ JRPG hybrid, and is completely incomparable to Skyrim. Zelda is an action/ adventure game and bears no resemblance to any of the above mentioned games.

The point of genre is to give people who might not have played a game before a way of getting an immediate understanding about what the game is about. To tell someone that Zelda is an "RPG" is doing them a massive disfavour, since if that person loves Dungeons & Dragons and Skyrim, there is no guarantee that they will enjoy Zelda.

In conclusion, let's stick to calling apples apples, oranges oranges, and spades spades. Skyrim is an RPG, Final Fantasy is a JRPG, Zelda is an Action Adventure game.

The 3DS, once again, has no RPGs on it right now. The DS only had one or two. it's not a genre that does so well on handhelds.

So you mean that Pokemon, Golden Sun, The World Ends With you, Final Fantasy, Tales, Sonic Chronicals, etc. weren't RPGs?

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theblackdragon

60. Posted:

I'm not sure that the OP meant just straight-up RPGs, as their list goes down to separate them into their categories — JRPG, dungeon crawler, etc. the term 'RPG' has taken on broader meaning over the years to include all these sorts of games, whether anyone likes it or not. there might not be any true straight-up RPGs on the system yet, but there are other games that fall under the same umbrella'd interpretation of the term.

Edited on by theblackdragon

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